Kitchen Knives - Page 9

Well, as I've said before, it depends on (1.) the task and (2.) the cook's work habits. I have and use both, and I like them, but I generally don't interchange them. It depends on the job.


I agree with the comment about the tip and fine control (although Henckels does have a finer tip and less sweep just for this purpose, which is one reason I really like their chef's knives). However, the way I julienne something is much easier to do with a full-bellied German knife (my Wusthoff chef's knife) than anything else, as I get a good rocking motion back and forth. So it all depends on how one cuts.

I was a chef for 10 years and have taught cooking for the last 14 at a small college in upstate NY (not the CIA). I would agree with Iammatt that a soft carbon French knife is your best bet because it can be easily sharpened. Harder steels are a bitch to sharpen and I almost always find that people with "decent" knives never have them sharp enough to be effective. Get a knife magnet and hang your knives up. Putting them in a drawer will dull them (unless you have covers) I always carry my knives with me when I travel/visit. I don't fly with them, but I do keep them in my car.

As for brands and the like: I don't really think it matters all that much. I often tell incoming culinary students that I'm not a mechanic and even if I went out and bought some great tools; I still wouldn't be able to change my transmission. Sharp is good, dull is bad.

Most experienced chefs I worked with never really used those one-sided japanese knives or the those wavy design ones (not even sure what they're called). They are too expensive to possibly ruin or have stolen. They often have those knives, but only break them out for special occasions. I've probably seen a decent amount Globals, but I don't care for the grip myself

My personal favorite is Dexter Connoiseur. I often recommend Chicago Cutlery to people who ask for recomendations as they are available at Wal-Mart. Again, sharp is good, dull is bad.

Is anyone else a fan of the larger Chroma's? http://www.amazon.com/Chroma-Porsche.../dp/B00062KOUI

I've found them to be very comfortable, even after long periods of prep work. I don't care for their small knives though, which the unique handles seem a bit pointless on.

All of my points still stand. Thank you for the English lesson, everything else I wrote is still correct. Coarse or even medium steels that come with most german knife sets will cause micro-serrations to be formed on the knife when used with a heavy hand. It's like taking a coarse file to your knife. After spending the effort polishing the edge of my knives on progressively finer stones, I certainly would not want to serrate and weaken the edge with a coarse steel. A smooth steel will gently straighten the edge, while a ceramic honing rod will remove some weaked metal from the edge while pushing it back into alignment. "When a typical German knife encounters a kitchen counter, a bone or something else hard it tends to roll it's edge." Just like I said, harder steel tends to chip instead of rolling. "Japanese made western style knives are lighter, have a thinner edge profile, made with better, higher carbon content steel, and are hardened to a higher RC number for superior edge retention." I was expecting you to pick nits with my "better" comment. They are better for the type of knives that are designed to offer maximum cutting performance. They are better because they can take a thinner, more acute edge and keep it. They are better because they often use steels that are designed from the ground up as knife steels by the manufacturer as opposed to kitchen sink steels adopted to knife use. Modern powder steel manufacturing technologies are able to create steel alloys with compositions that were not possible before. For example, Hitachi offers ZDP-189 steel that combines 3% carbon and 20% chromium with other metals. ZDP-189 is able to be hardened to RC65-67 and is stain resistant. If I need something for hard abuse I would use my Busse knives, which would chop through rocks, refridgerators and compact cars. Yes, obviously different alloys have their strength and weaknesses, which is why alloys specifically designed for high performance cutlery are better for that purpose. No knife manufacturer or custom designer I know of makes knives with s53 steel at least currently, but it appears S53 has only recenlty relased. Even though S53 is designed for high-strengh aerospace applications, I would not be surprised if some manufacturer offered pocket knives made from it in some point in the future. Knife geeks need "the next greatest thing" to keep them interested.

Finally, some news we can use! Dinner at Matt's!

I'm booking my flight as I type this.

Actually, I've been reading this thread with interest, and have been relatively entertained as well, but I haven't found much in this thread that's been inconsistent with what I've learned, extrapolating from the relative merits of chisels and razors from various countries. And funny enough, a country's strengths in razor-making extends to kitchen knives as well - French makes (TI, Le Grelot) are nimble and take a fine edge - German makes (Dovo, Henckels) are sturdy and less fincky - Japan artisans (Tosuke) take an astonishingly keen edge and last forever but are a bitch to hone, and you've got funny geometry there as well.

I'm still considering a Tojiro Gyutou, but no longer as a replacement for what already works but in a larger size. I already have enough collections and am just thinking about what works. Admittedly it's less romantic, but what really counts is what winds up on the plate.

I just use what feels best and has a good edge.

Just got a new Wusthof 8" cook's knife myself.

I don't understand why you think it would be harder to keep that edge. You are probably thinking about traditional Japanese knives which tend to be pretty substantial and are sharpened on one side only (aka single bevel). Besides Global, who have been at it the longest, there are many other Japanese manufacturers who have been making Western style (read French and German) knives which usually lighter and thinner, which translates to being more nimble than their French and German counterparts. Knife forums are full of professional chefs who are singing praises for their Japanese made western style knives. Comparing the blade shape on French and German knives, the Germans usually have more belly while the tip looks similar enough not to make a big deal to me, though it could be due to my technique. Western style knives made in Japan normally have a blade shape that's halfway between their German and French counterparts but there are enough manufacturers and variations that you can pretty much get what you want. Then there are always North American custom makers like Murray Carter, Bob Kramer and Thomas Haslinger. The latter two used to be professional chefs before becoming knifemakers. Some manufaturers who make Western Style knives in Japan besides Global and Shun: Tojiro, Suisin, Nenox/Nenohi, Masamoto, MAC, Togiharu, Brieto, Glestain. You certainly don't need something beautiful, but I rarely see practicality sacrificed for aesthetics. I often see owners modifing their knives to their needs by rounding of the top of the blade to minimize the calouses caused by the pinch grop or replacing the handle with a more attractive one. Cooking in a home setting is a lot more pleasurable when you feel a connection with your tools or ingredients. Do you not feel different when cooking with random supermarket ingredients or something you grew yourself? People feel something special when using tools custom made for them or possessing of extraordinary beauty, similar to the way you must feel when wearing your bespoke clothing. Do feel free to point out if my brunoise or allumette is below par if I post a picture and it offends your sensibilities.

This is really, really, inaccurate, in every imaginable way. What, is the steel realigning the domains on the blade, and this is something you notice? I realize we are talking about some fine distinctions in this thread, but this is the only one that is so far out there as to have no ground in reality, or perchance passing that, in any manner that any human will ever be able to discern. I find it particularly troubling in light of all the pontificating that has been going on -- at least some of the other trivialites might be noticed by someone, but this....there is just no way. You laugh at the need for a damascus knife or something 'similarly beautiful?' On SF? Are you kidding me? You buy good suits, I presume, merely for the longevity of their superior construction? Ok, I realize other points can be raised from that analogy, but hopefully you see my point. More to the topic, I doubt if anyone has implied that 'beautiful' knives are great only for that quality alone. No, they are great because in addition to superb function they are also beautiful. They contain the best of humanity, that combination of the artistic and the rational. The best of functional things in this world are those at the intersection of practicality and pleasure, things that are beautiful while fulfilling a task. One of the greatest daily horrors in the U.S. is a divorce of the beautiful from the practical (typically driven by costs), as that allows fewer and fewer experiences that we have to be beautiful. Best, Huntsman

^^ good post. I'm still a little confused then. For my Japanese knives, the manufacturer, which I called, said that honing is not really necessary. Should I still get a ceramic steel anyways for my Japanese MAC knives? For my heavy duty cleaver I just ordered a German Wusthof Classic due to its ability to take abuse better than Japanese knives, or so I've read. There are better knives but for the price I think I got a pretty good little set going.

Thanks. MAC and you are probably not on the same page, as honing typically implies a very fine sharpening operation (using an abrasive that removes metal), whereas steeling indicates an operation in which the metal that is there and bent over from use is realigned with the blade. Metal is primarily deformed by steeling, whereas honing removes it. So yes, you should get a steel. You need one. Ceramic or otherwise I have no idea. ~ Huntsman

Yes, I understand what the difference is between honing and sharpening. I was surprised they weren't emphatic about honing, in any case, I will order a ceramic steel right now anyways.

Sorry -- though you were conflagrating them. Lots of people do. Lots of firms say their knives never need sharpening, but I don't really believe that.

First of all, I buy good suits because they look good on me, not simply because they are "beautiful." Second of all, most of these are not really Damascus steel, so in a sense they are playing "dress up" like many of the people on this board, and pretending to be something they are not. A cheap imitation, if you will. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as is function. As somebody with a lot of experience with knives, I can say that they are, if anything, less functional for me that most others I have tried. While one of the daily horrors in the US may be a divorce of what is practical from what is beautiful, I don't necessarily agree with you, I am certain that one of the daily horrors on the internet is the divorce of what is real from what is artifice. As far as your first comment, my understanding of steeling knives has always been that it realigns the burrs on the edge. It seems to be a popular belief, although perhaps it is a misconception. Nonetheless, I will continue to do it as I was taught, as it seems to me to work.

You might want to get another opinion. I just bought a stone for my MAC knife from a great Japanese hand tool and knife speciality store and they were very adamant that I never use a steel ceramic or otherwise. I have been led to believe that with the Japanese knives you are in fact honing the edge and due to the somewhat brittle nature of the steel you don't want to steel it at all.
Are you in the Bay Area? If so stop by Hida tool in North Berkeley http://www.hidatool.com/ If you like high end hand tools they are awesome. Well worth a look 'round.