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ethan's Musing on the Near East - Page 62

post #916 of 2695
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Find Finn View Post


You clearly don't want to understand what's being said.

You can ask him, if he can go back on holiday, the answer is probably no, since he is still here.


No, you don't want to understand. You want to believe, for whatever reason, that these aren't legitimate refugees, that they're gaming the system, that they can just go home. This is a fucked up way to justify denying them assistance. Whatever makes your world complete, bro. Just know that you're using heuristics to justify a fear based in xenophobia. 

post #917 of 2695
Quote:
Originally Posted by ethanm View Post

saahbi you have to know that this is 100% bullshit. You think all the new Sunni inhabitants of Lebanon are there because they aren't being murdered by the regime? Why are they in Lebanon and not Damascus? 

Look, I'm not apologizing for Ahrar and JAI and Nusra and everybody else but you have to understand that Asad's brutality created this. He is not the good guy. He defends nothing but himself and the minority that him and his father have led to a potential genocide. 

With regards to American caused civilian casualties... yes, that was very bad, however, it's about intent. Assad's intent is to kill as many in opposition territory as he can to subdue them. It's a strategy that may work on a city (Homs massacre?) but not the entire country. 

Assad is a total murderous asshole in the fine tradition of bloodsoaked dictators throughout history.

The "well he's a secularist stemming extremist groups" defense totally ignores the chronology of events (his brutality came first and that little incident w the teenagers kicked off a firestorm). ...put another way, he is the horse and the rebel groups that may or may not be islamist extremists are the cart, not the other way around.

For Assad - and I believe Putin cites this a lot too - the secularist-bulwark-against-islamist-extremism polemic is a great ploy tho. It gives the west cause to pause and muddies the waters, somewhat justifying/obfuscating Assad's slaughter.

In reality any rational person looking at the media images of the hordes of refugees (or "unwilling migrants" or w/e finn and ethan were duelling about) would not say the vast majority are anything other than normal people caught in a horrible situation.
post #918 of 2695
If they want to go to Sweden let them, I don't care, its against the rules of Schengen, but who gives a fuck. The Swedish Police has started to complain as they can't handle the pressure and don't have the space.

The highlighted part is pretty evident that, the person who is quoted can go back, unlike a lot of other people.

"But in Sweden we can get permanent residence, so that we can return and visit family, and we work so that we can rebuild our lives. We just want to have stability, "he said.

And like I've stated earlier the people who NEED help deserve to get all the help they need, but the people who are not real refugees are taking up beds, homes, psychiatric help, food etc. etc. from those who really need it, which is putting the people who are actually in dire need of help in a situation, which is not okay.
post #919 of 2695
Thread Starter 

How do you know he meant go back to Syria? I know families spread across 2, 3, even 4 European countries. Without travel documents they wouldn't be able to visit anyone, even in Europe, no? 

post #920 of 2695
Return/go back means per the definition of the dictionary, to go back in the direction of which you've come from.

They can get travel documents in any schengen country after getting a residency permit.

Honestly if I had to move to a different part of the world, I would move to an underdeveloped part, as that has the biggest possibility of me creating a good living, as you can just copy things that work in developed nations and be the first to do something, which gives you a head start.
post #921 of 2695
Quote:
Originally Posted by ethanm View Post


With regards to American caused civilian casualties... yes, that was very bad, however, it's about intent. Assad's intent is to kill as many in opposition territory as he can to subdue them.

This guy really drunk the Coolaid. US always kills with good intentions he says.
He goes as far as giving marks of "Very Bad" to 100 thousands killed and millions displaced by US. He must be objective he gave Iraq/Afghanistan massacres a C-.
post #922 of 2695
Iraq and Afghanistan were mishandled (Bremer, light footprint etc) and possibly intractable problems from the start re: creating peaceful democratic societies. W was certainly naieve thinking tribalistic sectarian people would naturally champion "liberty and freedom". Many were more interested in getting even w other groups on past grievances.

That being said, I dont believe the US ever indiscriminately targeted neighborhoods full of civilians in either theater.

I get why claiming they have/do fits into the uberleftist Michael Moore nitwit mode of thinking but am at a loss as to what productive reason the US would have to do so....
post #923 of 2695
Quote:
Originally Posted by Find Finn View Post

Return/go back means per the definition of the dictionary, to go back in the direction of which you've come from.

They can get travel documents in any schengen country after getting a residency permit.

Honestly if I had to move to a different part of the world, I would move to an underdeveloped part, as that has the biggest possibility of me creating a good living, as you can just copy things that work in developed nations and be the first to do something, which gives you a head start.

err, no. I prefer good healthcare, proper infrastructure and a high standard of living..
These people don't want to get rich, they want a living.
Did you catch this?:
http://www.dw.com/en/german-employers-should-hire-more-refugees/a-18673577

As I noted here earlier, we could use the influx of younger workers to keep our pension system intact. We just need to start the right debate, that this is all about demographics and money, unpalatable as it is...
post #924 of 2695
I would personally prefer it, as I like being my own boss. It's easier to set up something in a non saturated market, so f.x. setting a Syrian chicken stand is easier somewhere with no to few, than in the middle of a non war thorn Damascus.

There's a chain of middle eastern restaurants in Brazil called Habib's, which is basically the same concept.

----

Yeah, we acutely need engineers, doctors etc., but there's a couple issues.

1. The university of Bagdad is not a recognized university in most European countries, so their degrees aren't transferable, I assume the same goes for Damascus, so they sadly can't use their degrees and therefor not become doctors etc.

2. The governments tax system is pushing out almost all production jobs, so we almost don't have any blue-collar jobs left, for people of lower education to get/take.
Plus most construction jobs are being outsourced to EE workers, who are getting paid way below union workers.

3. Statistics show that non western immigrants and decentness there of range higher in the unemployment Nat av. 12% NW 50%, 22% of all people on wellfare are non western immigrants.
They are 7.2% of the entire population, but they stand for 13% of all criminal conviction. (Palestinians are the highest).
Their grades are 2-3 point on the 12 scale lower than western and native danes, based on experience it's the boys who are dragging down the average, as the girls are doing exceedingly well and almost all of them end up at some sort of uni. (Vietnamese are the only higher than danes)
There are twice as many on early retirement, than non western immigrants and native danes.

4. I know multiple larger firms, who are more or less unwilling to hire especially muslims, due to multiple bad experiences of being unwilling to work and a very high number of sick days and poor attitudes.

So the question is, are they the immigrants we need to solve our problems or should we import asians and EE?
Statistics show that they are much easier to integrant into society, are higher educated, commit less crime and have a lower unemployment rate per capita. Which means we can sustain our wellfare system.
post #925 of 2695
Thread Starter 

This is not the thread to flesh out where you think Europe should be "importing" people from. 

post #926 of 2695
Ya gotta give some credit to Finn. That was a meaty poast. He jumped right past the emotional responses to all the media images of the hardluck Syrian refugee/migrants right to long term displaced person/immigration metrics once theyre in his country.

I can only offer an anecdote. Friend of the wife's dad is a Syrian. His degree as a medical sugeon was rejected in Canada way before the war. He redid medical school on his own dime and switched to psychiatry since he wanted to try something new once stuck in that predicament.

Hes a productive member of society now over here and tragically basically his entire extended family is now dead.

Im not saying this is even close to the expected outcome we should have, however, it does make me pretty hopeful that should more displaced people be resettled in the west it'd probably be a long-term net benefit.
post #927 of 2695
Quote:
Originally Posted by ethanm View Post

This is not the thread to flesh out where you think Europe should be "importing" people from. 

It was a direct response to Nootje's post about Europe needing young "highly educated" people in the working force, to sustain our welfare system long term, which a lot of Syrians are, but statistics and laws are not on their side.

As they want to create a life and get jobs, most Western European countries need to pull xx,xxx jobs outs its ass ASAP.

You don't have to agree, but facts are facts.
post #928 of 2695
I think it's hilarious that liberals think "we should help refugees because Steve Jobs" is a powerful argument for taking in ME migrants/refugees.

i.e. people only have value when they invent things for us.

lmao.
post #929 of 2695
Quote:
Originally Posted by SirReveller View Post

Assad is a total murderous asshole in the fine tradition of bloodsoaked dictators throughout history.

The "well he's a secularist stemming extremist groups" defense totally ignores the chronology of events (his brutality came first and that little incident w the teenagers kicked off a firestorm). ...put another way, he is the horse and the rebel groups that may or may not be islamist extremists are the cart, not the other way around.

Not really. The real chronology of events would start in 2005 (well the decision was made before as part of the general ME strategy when the decision to target Syria and by proxy isolate and target Hezballah was taken.
The Arab Spring thing was the perfect opportunity and all the imams of the poor sunni syrians that had been financed by gulf arabs were ready to capitalise.

If you think wars such as this start because of incidents with teenagers youre mistaken. They start when those orders are given, and the weapons shipped, and the money paid.


And please stop saying "may or may not be islamist extremists". That maybe had some minute probability the first two days of the war. Looking at the map i see jabhat nusra (alqaeda) isis(those guys who behead people) Zahran Alloush (mr islamic caliphate maybe whos actually an even more corrupt version of Assad already)...

Unless you mean the 60 (?) people that the Pentagon deemed moderate enough to train, lets just call a spade a spade.
Quote:
For Assad - and I believe Putin cites this a lot too - the secularist-bulwark-against-islamist-extremism polemic is a great ploy tho. It gives the west cause to pause and muddies the waters, somewhat justifying/obfuscating Assad's slaughter.

How is it a ploy? He is a secularist violent dictator fighting against extremist violent islamists. Thats simply the reality. Anyone when given the choice between the two would choose the first, and there is no viable third alternative yet.

And its not like Merkel and Obama sit and watch Putin and Assad's propaganda to decide their policy about a reality that they helped create.
Quote:
In reality any rational person looking at the media images of the hordes of refugees (or "unwilling migrants" or w/e finn and ethan were duelling about) would not say the vast majority are anything other than normal people caught in a horrible situation.

Agreed.
post #930 of 2695
Quote:
Originally Posted by ethanm View Post

saahbi you have to know that this is 100% bullshit. You think all the new Sunni inhabitants of Lebanon are there because they aren't being murdered by the regime? Why are they in Lebanon and not Damascus? 

Except that the refugees are overwhelmingly not the sunnis of Damascus, but those of the areas that witnessed intense fighting. Assad areas still have a majority of Syrias population and theyre still majority sunni and there have been no significant targeting of sunnis based on sect by Assad whatsoever.

When i came back to Lebanon we used to protest Syrian occupation at Basketball games because that was the only way that wed gather (to support a certain christian team). I remember second game we went was against the leading "sunni" team. We chanted some anti-syria slogan and got the shit beat out of us by the sunni crowd, since they were all pro-Assad. That was in 2003. in 2005 suddenly when their leadership switched they were demonstrating with us against Syria.

I had an altercation in university with a guy about Syria and he was fervently defending Assad. Hes now an MP with Hariri and makes anti-Assad statements all day.

Its almost comical how it happens. If Saudi and Qatar decide tomorrow that they want Assad, id give Jazeera and the paid imams two monthes before they get every sunni in Syria to kiss his feet.


Thats what happens when there are poor and uneducated masses, and Assad shares the blame for leaving them as such perhaps.
Quote:
Look, I'm not apologizing for Ahrar and JAI and Nusra and everybody else but you have to understand that Asad's brutality created this. He is not the good guy. He defends nothing but himself and the minority that him and his father have led to a potential genocide. 

No. What created this is the gulf arabs and the US facilitating importing every radical islamist to Syria. They have poured all of this regions shit into that country.
Assad is way beyond defending himself at this point. The fate of several minorities, of moderate sunnis, the fate of secularism in Syria, the fate of the anti western chaos plans rests on him staying and/or finding an equivalent alternative.

If Assad had been beaten ISIS would be beheading people from Damascus to Beirut and the Saudis would be sending them F15s to bomb Hezballah. Theyd probably have started messing with russia by now too

Again you talk about good and evil and black and white yet you forget that the white doesnt exist, Theres Assad's black and everyone else's even darker infernal black.
Quote:
With regards to American caused civilian casualties... yes, that was very bad, however, it's about intent. Assad's intent is to kill as many in opposition territory as he can to subdue them. It's a strategy that may work on a city (Homs massacre?) but not the entire country. 

Not really. When they bomb they know a certain percentage of civilians will die, yet do it anyway. Same as Assad.

Besides, this is the nation that bombed the hell out of Dresden, nuked two whole cities with everyone in them, napalmed the hell out of Vietnam children, bombed Afghanistan to the ground, and created false nuke evidence to do the same to Iraq.

All while having the most accurate and advanced weapons in the world.

And now theyre saying why is Assad killing civilians while fighting every terrorist group in the middle east that they helped import to Syria. Thats rich...





For the record, im anti-immigration and if i was european id be against it now. Syrians werent dying in boats trying to get to your countries before Merkel and Hollande started messing with theirs (whether theyre aware enough to blame them or not).
I hope they all sleep in Holland's bed and that an ISIS guy sneaks in with them and slits his throat. Then hed know what he did to Syria.
Edited by alan - 9/8/15 at 12:40am
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