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ethan's Musing on the Near East - Page 145

post #2161 of 2699
Yes, no group of people that's found themselves a minority in a land they were formerly a majority has ever gotten on with their lives after that. Ever.
post #2162 of 2699
Quote:
Originally Posted by Medwed View Post

Israel did not expel them nor attacked them to take their land.

 

 

You can have your own opinion.  You cannot have your own version of history.

 

First wave of Palestinian Exodus:

"The Arab evacuees from the towns and villages left largely because of Jewish attacks or fear of impending attack, and from a sense of vulnerability." - Fact, Fiction and Propaganda about 1948, by Benny Morris, Irish Times, Feb. 2008:

 

Second wave:

"Undoubtedly ... the most important single factor in the exodus was Jewish attack. This is demonstrated clearly by the fact that each exodus occurred during or in the immediate wake of military assault. No town was abandoned by the bulk of its population before the main Haganah/IZL assault." - Morris

 

Third wave:

"Altogether, the Israeli offensives of the Ten Days and the subsequent clearing operations probably send something over 100,000 Arabs into exile."  About half of these were expelled from Lydda and Ramle on 12 through 14 July. Expulsion orders were given for both towns, the one for Ramle calling for "sorting out of the inhabitants, and send the army-age males to a prisoner-of-war camp.  The commanders involved understood that what was happening was an expulsion rather than a spontaneous exodus." - Morris

 

Fourth wave:

United Nations observers, who had been dispatched to monitor how the partition plan, reported in October that Israeli policy was that of "uprooting Arabs from their native villages in Palestine by force or threat." - United Nations Archives

 

"(Israeli) commanders were clearly bent on driving out the population in the area they were conquering." - Morris

 

 

Causes of abandonment of Palestinian villages and towns, as chronicled by Morris:

 

Military assault on settlement 215

Influence of nearby town's fall 59

Expulsion by Jewish forces 53

Fear (of being caught up in fighting) 48

Whispering campaigns 15

Abandonment on Arab orders 6

Unknown 44

 

 

post #2163 of 2699
Quote:
Originally Posted by Medwed View Post

Look at your own fucking country unleashing all types of weapons on Arabs and fanning sectarian & civil wars.

 

Just as many Israeli (and most American) Jews want a peaceful two-state solution, many Americans including myself reject the Bush-Obama-Hillary-Rubio doctrine of "all war, all the time" and I exclusively support candidates opposed to said doctrine. 

post #2164 of 2699
Quote:
Originally Posted by alan View Post

Medwed, what do you mean rightfully so?
I mean country of ISrael has a right to its borders and choose who crosses them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alan View Post

First, the zionists before the creation of israel, used the british occupation to force people out, by direct british violence as well as zionist armed groups, in addition to outright land buying.
What is your point exactly?
Quote:
Originally Posted by alan View Post

Secondly they brought in a sudden influx of israelis and declared a jewish state for these people, which included within it arabs that had been there and didnt want to be part of it.
Ask ISraeli Arabs now, how many of them looking to immigrate to model Muslim-Arab state? How big is Arab immigration from Israel to US or EU? I only have met Arab Christians from Gaza and WB in US.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alan View Post

Anyway, lets say this is all fait accompli. That state has recognized borders and everything it is doing now in Jerusalem, west bank and gaza is in terroritories that dont belong to it and where other people live yet it actively works to change the demography and bring in their zealot religious settlers instead.
Which state these territories belong to then? Right, these are lawless lands that belong to no nation .
What prevents Muslim-Arabs proclaiming their own state, just as Jews did? Without waiting for any resolutions of UN or articles of recognition.
Oh, I see, Muslim-Arabs can't and won't, cause they want Jerusalem to be its capital and all Jews and Christians gone. In short, they want a model Muslim-Arab state.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alan View Post

Nothing in this is rightful and there isnt one step in all of this where any american or european or any human would not have fought back harsher than palestinians have.
Jews fought Romans for their lands and lost, however they fought Roman army not Roman's children and women. And that is why I feel little sympathy for Muslim-Arabs anywhere they wage theri holly war. They can call themselves Egyptians or Palestinians, but they remain neither.
post #2165 of 2699
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickCarraway View Post
 
Quote:
 

 

Just as many Israeli (and most American) Jews want a peaceful two-state solution, many Americans including myself reject the Bush-Obama-Hillary-Rubio doctrine of "all war, all the time" and I exclusively support candidates opposed to said doctrine. 

There are not enough thumbs for this post

post #2166 of 2699

Oh bullshit! The last battle of soldier to soldier was Iwo Jima

post #2167 of 2699
Quote:
Originally Posted by NickCarraway View Post

Just as many Israeli (and most American) Jews want a peaceful two-state solution, many Americans including myself reject the Bush-Obama-Hillary-Rubio doctrine of "all war, all the time" and I exclusively support candidates opposed to said doctrine. 

Doctrine is called Manifest Destiny , established probably in 19 C. I get you now. You are a reasonable Liberal who votes in US elections and supports "candidates for peace".
post #2168 of 2699
Quote:
Originally Posted by Medwed View Post


Doctrine is called Manifest Destiny , established probably in 19 C. I get you now. You are a reasonable Liberal who votes in US elections and supports "candidates for peace".

 

I don't think Manifest Destiny had a multi-trillion-dollar price-tag (the cost of the Spanish-American War was $250 million/$6 billion in today's money).

 

Small-"l" libertarian, not liberal.

post #2169 of 2699
Quote:
Originally Posted by Medwed View Post

I mean country of ISrael has a right to its borders and choose who crosses them.

Ok. Except its borders are well defined and it keeps wanting to choose and govern outside of them too. Or does it have the right to do that too?
Quote:
What is your point exactly?

That they were forced out
Quote:
Which state these territories belong to then? Right, these are lawless lands that belong to no nation .

Its ridiculous to ignore the fact that those palestinians live on that land and pretend that that does not make them "owners" of that land because all the UN members or whatever havent agreed on it.

But anyway, since you want to take UN official decisions as the benchmark of who decides what, then there are numerous resolutions that call for israeli withdrawal from these lands and say that its presence and its settlement building is illegal. So if this is the side that decides which state should be where, then it has already decided is not israel's
Quote:
What prevents Muslim-Arabs proclaiming their own state, just as Jews did? Without waiting for any resolutions of UN or articles of recognition.
Oh, I see, Muslim-Arabs can't and won't, cause they want Jerusalem to be its capital and all Jews and Christians gone. In short, they want a model Muslim-Arab state.

Christians? Israel has harmed and expelled and harrassed christians and muslims equally.

And whats wrong with wanting east jerusalem? Again, they live there and israel keeps teying to ethnically change it. Besides, jerusalem isnt in israels borders.... Excuse them for wanting territories where they live and that arent part of israel. But israel can want the whole middle east and thats ok.
Quote:
Jews fought Romans for their lands and lost, however they fought Roman army not Roman's children and women. And that is why I feel little sympathy for Muslim-Arabs anywhere they wage theri holly war. They can call themselves Egyptians or Palestinians, but they remain neither.

I dont think you wanna do a count of who killed more women and children and made them homeless
post #2170 of 2699
Russia is apparently using cluster bombs according to some reports
post #2171 of 2699
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lighthouse View Post

Its time to discuss a giant wall.
I think the current Big Fucking Moat will work.
post #2172 of 2699
Quote:
Originally Posted by alan View Post

Ok. Except its borders are well defined and it keeps wanting to choose and govern outside of them too. Or does it have the right to do that too?
You are wrong, the borders that UN drew in 1948 were not accepted by Arab nations and that is why they have attacked immediately. They have lost and since then engaged in war of attrition with Israel, hoping that one day they would gobble up the whole of Jerusalem and expel all Jews. Arabs are not coy about it , they have stated this as their goal time and time again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alan View Post

That they were forced out
Its ridiculous to ignore the fact that those palestinians live on that land and pretend that that does not make them "owners" of that land because all the UN members or whatever havent agreed on it.
Israel withdrew their army from West Bank and Gaza over a decade ago. Issue of settlements is that Israel dismantled all of them in Gaza and now building a wall to prevent those Arabs from jumping over it or digging under it to reach Israel. The whole issue of blockade is very hypocritical. Egypt does not allow goods or people to come to Gaza, but Israel does not block goods or humanitarian aid, Israel collects taxes and provides emergency healthcare to arabs in Gaza and yet all peaceful Arabs want is more land inside Israel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alan View Post

But anyway, since you want to take UN official decisions as the benchmark of who decides what, then there are numerous resolutions that call for israeli withdrawal from these lands and say that its presence and its settlement building is illegal. So if this is the side that decides which state should be where, then it has already decided is not israel's
I never said what you claim I have said about UN. Regardless, as I said Israel withdrew from annexed territories, it was promised Piece for Land. It did not turn out that way. Now Israelis are building a wall to keep them out while Hamas using limited building materials to construct tunnels while stupidly boasting about it.
Considering that Israel annexed Gaza from Egypt and W. Bank from Jordan in 1967 war it is quite amazing that Arabs succeeded in driving the winner of that war ISrael off these territories. Is Gaza a sovereign state (it had elections over decade ago ) it has de facto government that killed all opposition from Fatah and now pretends to govern Gaza, is W. Bank a sovereign state, it has a government ? Why not? Oh wait, it is Jews' fault that muslims world over cannot tell their ass from elbow for the past 700+ years.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alan View Post

Christians? Israel has harmed and expelled and harrassed christians and muslims equally.
I am not aware of a history of expelling and harassing Christians by Israel. How big is Arab or Christian immigration from Israel? When were they expelled or oppressed? Where did those Christian go , they must have resettled somewhere? Which country?
Quote:
Originally Posted by alan View Post

And whats wrong with wanting east jerusalem? Again, they live there and israel keeps teying to ethnically change it. Besides, jerusalem isnt in israels borders.... Excuse them for wanting territories where they live and that arent part of israel. But israel can want the whole middle east and thats ok.
What's wrong? Well sort of the same 'wrong' as Muslim-Turks squatting in Konstantinopoulos while expelling anyone who is not muslim while converting churches into mosques and killing priests. So yea, Arab-Muslims might want Jerusalem , but as potential tourist (not a religious person) who wants to see historical cities intact and monuments not toppled over or completely destroyed in religious delirium I am in favor of Jerusalem staying under control of Jews or Christians not Arab-Muslims.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alan View Post

I dont think you wanna do a count of who killed more women and children and made them homeless
That is simple . NATO did. with a runner-up being Arab-Muslims.
post #2173 of 2699
Quote:
Originally Posted by the shah View Post
 
Quote:



 

But in any case, please please please keep Arab-Israeli issues out of this thread it's the one decent thread in CE that doesn't devolve into mindless partisan babbling (except for the trolls but that's expected of them, and you're not one so you can't be excused!)

Oh well at least you tried

post #2174 of 2699
post #2175 of 2699
Not to mention who would they defect to? If I recall correctly, many of the earlier defections were when the rebels were much more organized. I may be mistaken but apart from ISIS I don't think there' has been a more organized/fearsome group to defect to in the past year or 2.
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