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ethan's Musing on the Near East - Page 123

post #1831 of 2744
Thread Starter 

Iraqi civil society activist: our youth in large numbers are turning towards atheism, as a reaction to Islamist violence & failures. #Iraq

 

 

Not sure if this is a good thing...

post #1832 of 2744
Why?
post #1833 of 2744
Thread Starter 

Because they make themselves an "other" this way. Though I'm loathe to use the language of Edward Said, declaring oneself as an atheist puts you outside of religious society. An atheist Iraqi calling for secular law is then likened to Westerners calling for secular law in the Middle East. Unfortunately, I think change has to come through the language of Islam, at least at first. 


Edited by ethanm - 12/5/15 at 9:13am
post #1834 of 2744
I'm not disagreeing with you, but I'm not agreeing either. As we have seen before the change has to come from the youth and if they can make a sustainable democratic change, more power to them.
post #1835 of 2744
Thread Starter 

I agree, it can be good I just don't know if it will be. And it's not just losing religion, I don't think religion is all that bad, but it's leaving behind the constant looking to the past. Middle Eastern societies are deeply reactionary and that is their biggest problem. Religiosity is just a manifestation of that. 

post #1836 of 2744
Thread Starter 

In good news, 23 million pilgrims have attended Arbaeen and there hasn't been a single stampede! 

post #1837 of 2744
Lol turkey sent troops into iraq and iraq is telling them to withdraw.

Turkey fattened isis and wants to replace it now and present itself as the sunni alternative. Erdogan has dreams of reviving the ottoman empire apparently
post #1838 of 2744
Quote:
Originally Posted by ethanm View Post

I agree, it can be good I just don't know if it will be. And it's not just losing religion, I don't think religion is all that bad, but it's leaving behind the constant looking to the past. Middle Eastern societies are deeply reactionary and that is their biggest problem. Religiosity is just a manifestation of that. 

If they can get religion out of politics and move towards non religious politics and market economy, interesting things will happen.
post #1839 of 2744

Dogma is an instrument of oppression it was written such and its very existence is an insult to the search for spiritual enlightenment. Until the religions of the children of Abraham rid themselves of it they will continue to wallow in the Dark Ages

post #1840 of 2744
the singular focus in these statements is bordering on the absurd and in my opinion does a disservice to atheism
post #1841 of 2744
Quote:
Originally Posted by alan View Post

Lol turkey sent troops into iraq and iraq is telling them to withdraw.

Turkey fattened isis and wants to replace it now and present itself as the sunni alternative. Erdogan has dreams of reviving the ottoman empire apparently

his insanity was well established long ago. i assume it is in part meant to counter the heavy influence of iran which has been also tending toward imperial aspirations
post #1842 of 2744
Quote:
Originally Posted by the shah View Post

the singular focus in these statements is bordering on the absurd and in my opinion does a disservice to atheism


Well you don't have to look very far to see the massive disservice that has been paid to Islam through the fundamental interpretations of dogmatic passages of  scripture. Here we are in the 21st century and people are still killing each other over the number of angels on the head of a pin

post #1843 of 2744
Quote:
Originally Posted by englade321 View Post

Well you don't have to look very far to see the massive disservice that has been paid to Islam through the fundamental interpretations of dogmatic passages of  scripture. Here we are in the 21st century and people are still killing each other over the number of angels on the head of a pin

Sure there are crazies that fight over anything. People shoot each other in movie theaters and athletes murder people, too, and you get slaughtered for eating beef and for fasting. But your original post wasn't about that, it was asserting that the "dark ages" will continue so long as dogma remains [among the children of Abraham]. But this is completely reductive. There are countless other ways to argue against religion or more specifically against belief in the supernatural. And of course, any ideology that is impervious to change has the potential to become dogma.

But take for example China. Would you argue it is in the "dark ages" ? They don't have the effect of religious indoctrination but do enforce state loyalty and brainwashing--that falls under the framework of dogma--have embraced in many sectors the free market economy that Find Finn implies is the path forward, and yet people live in near-slavery conditions, restaurants serve remains of diseased pigs tossed into rivers, they export garbage, take over lands belonging to others, and other such behavior one might brush off as general barbarities. Yet they continue on as a potential future superpower.

With respect to the issue of market economy being the holy grail (heh heh), consider many European examples. The economies in the UK and France are hanging by mere threads, but this is all masked by fear-mongering of immigrant takeover knocking at the door and the failures of Iberians and Greek systems. Yet they've largely abandoned dogma, religious or otherwise. On the other hand, in comparison, religion is alive and well in the US. In fact, it's so prevalent that there are religious institutions with direct pipelines into the congress. Some states want to allow creationism in science classes. Washing DC has one of the highest densities of churches. You can call it showmanship or whatever, but it remains a relevant part of any candidate's campaign to emphasize his/her religiosity. And yet, here we are in the 21st century, masters of the universe.

I'm in favor of laïcité*. But to zone in specifically on religion as the inhibiting factor for "progress" as measured solely by economic growth is rather narrow-sighted and emphasizes only a materialistic existence where people in Walmart pepper-spray one another and stampedes ensue every black friday.

* I view it as a failure in France whence the term originates

edit: the point in all this goes back to ethan's post; if the entire population of iraq became secular/agnostic/atheist tomorrow and it's borders were sealed so as to keep out isis, iran, turkey, and all others, it still wouldn't fix anything because there are so many other compounding factors at play. hence why, when presented with an historic and momentous opportunity to rebuild after the deposition of saddam, all went to hell -- predictably.
Edited by the shah - 12/5/15 at 6:12pm
post #1844 of 2744
Quote:
 
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Originally Posted by the shah View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by englade321 View Post

Well you don't have to look very far to see the massive disservice that has been paid to Islam through the fundamental interpretations of dogmatic passages of  scripture. Here we are in the 21st century and people are still killing each other over the number of angels on the head of a pin

Sure there are crazies that fight over anything. People shoot each other in movie theaters and athletes murder people, too, and you get slaughtered for eating beef and for fasting. But your original post wasn't about that, it was asserting that the "dark ages" will continue so long as dogma remains [among the children of Abraham]. But this is completely reductive. There are countless other ways to argue against religion or more specifically against belief in the supernatural. And of course, any ideology that is impervious to change has the potential to become dogma.

But take for example China. Would you argue it is in the "dark ages" ? They don't have the effect of religious indoctrination but do enforce state loyalty and brainwashing--that falls under the framework of dogma--have embraced in many sectors the free market economy that Find Finn implies is the path forward, and yet people live in near-slavery conditions, restaurants serve remains of diseased pigs tossed into rivers, they export garbage, take over lands belonging to others, and other such behavior one might brush off as general barbarities. Yet they continue on as a potential future superpower.

With respect to the issue of market economy being the holy grail (heh heh), consider many European examples. The economies in the UK and France are hanging by mere threads, but this is all masked by fear-mongering of immigrant takeover knocking at the door and the failures of Iberians and Greek systems. Yet they've largely abandoned dogma, religious or otherwise. On the other hand, in comparison, religion is alive and well in the US. In fact, it's so prevalent that there are religious institutions with direct pipelines into the congress. Some states want to allow creationism in science classes. Washing DC has one of the highest densities of churches. You can call it showmanship or whatever, but it remains a relevant part of any candidate's campaign to emphasize his/her religiosity. And yet, here we are in the 21st century, masters of the universe.

I'm in favor of laïcité*. But to zone in specifically on religion as the inhibiting factor for "progress" as measured solely by economic growth is rather narrow-sighted and emphasizes only a materialistic existence where people in Walmart pepper-spray one another and stampedes ensue every black friday.

* I view it as a failure in France whence the term originates

 

Certainly there are myriad ways in which men justify the oppression of their fellows. That is not the point of what i posted . You only need look at the history of the Soviet Union to realize an example of atheistic oppression.The point was, the way religion participates in this activity is through dogmatic tenants. They are open to interpretation , manipulation and being  co- opted by  by small minded and self serving groups and individuals in service to their own purposes. They can't even be questioned on grounds of reason as they are proclaimed to be the will of God. Im not making a statement against religion or the existence of God but those irrefutable rules and descriptions that must be unquestionably adhered to, under the threat of shunning,being declared a heretic ,unbeliever or worse,by the self declared cognoscenti to the Supreme Being and thus fair game for any form of atrocity they declare fitting. 

post #1845 of 2744
Quote:
Originally Posted by the shah View Post

Sure there are crazies that fight over anything. People shoot each other in movie theaters and athletes murder people, too, and you get slaughtered for eating beef and for fasting. But your original post wasn't about that, it was asserting that the "dark ages" will continue so long as dogma remains [among the children of Abraham]. But this is completely reductive. There are countless other ways to argue against religion or more specifically against belief in the supernatural. And of course, any ideology that is impervious to change has the potential to become dogma.

But take for example China. Would you argue it is in the "dark ages" ? They don't have the effect of religious indoctrination but do enforce state loyalty and brainwashing--that falls under the framework of dogma--have embraced in many sectors the free market economy that Find Finn implies is the path forward, and yet people live in near-slavery conditions, restaurants serve remains of diseased pigs tossed into rivers, they export garbage, take over lands belonging to others, and other such behavior one might brush off as general barbarities. Yet they continue on as a potential future superpower.

With respect to the issue of market economy being the holy grail (heh heh), consider many European examples. The economies in the UK and France are hanging by mere threads, but this is all masked by fear-mongering of immigrant takeover knocking at the door and the failures of Iberians and Greek systems. Yet they've largely abandoned dogma, religious or otherwise. On the other hand, in comparison, religion is alive and well in the US. In fact, it's so prevalent that there are religious institutions with direct pipelines into the congress. Some states want to allow creationism in science classes. Washing DC has one of the highest densities of churches. You can call it showmanship or whatever, but it remains a relevant part of any candidate's campaign to emphasize his/her religiosity. And yet, here we are in the 21st century, masters of the universe.

I'm in favor of laïcité*. But to zone in specifically on religion as the inhibiting factor for "progress" as measured solely by economic growth is rather narrow-sighted and emphasizes only a materialistic existence where people in Walmart pepper-spray one another and stampedes ensue every black friday.

* I view it as a failure in France whence the term originates

edit: the point in all this goes back to ethan's post; if the entire population of iraq became secular/agnostic/atheist tomorrow and it's borders were sealed so as to keep out isis, iran, turkey, and all others, it still wouldn't fix anything because there are so many other compounding factors at play. hence why, when presented with an historic and momentous opportunity to rebuild after the deposition of saddam, all went to hell -- predictably.

China is a not very well disguised communist nation still today, their economy is based on shadow games (ie Empty cities etc.), which is also highly corrupt, so using them as an example of a well functioning example of free trade and market economy, is a bit.....

Most european countries aren't really market economies, but functional socialism, which some will call the best of all the evils, I'm not so sure though. The socialism has made a lot of people complacent as the government will hold up their ass and the government keeps growing to support them. So one can argue the wellfare state we are trying to protect is an evil circle.

I put a basic calculation on the immigration the Europe thread, which you and Ethan both ignored.

Religion in it self is not an impediment of progress, but having as a basis for trade and government is, as it stops a lot of very frugal business for establishing themselves and creating jobs and prosperity. In countries with a mixed religious population, why stop them from producing alcohol etc. instead of importing it? I made an example of this some time ago, based on a friends experiences in Tanzania.

From my knowledge a contributing factor to Iraq's failure was that the parlement, became largely Shi'a and they started to further alienate the sunni's, which has lead us to where we are today.
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