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Young man...have you no shame? - Page 3

post #31 of 60
Respectfully, and to clarify. My original point was that I am glad that at my child's school they dress the kids the same. See, when I was a kid that whole 'identity' search was about who had the cool tee-shirt and who wasn't cool. Personally, I prefer to have my child in a school where they don't do that. I also never advocated my particular religious beliefs over anyone else's. Nor did I rant about any particular side of the American political arena. I'd prefer that the kids find their identity through something a bit more substantial than tee shirts designed to make others blush. Maybe that makes me a priggish old fart, perhaps I have a point. Go back to my post right before Steve started quoting Michael Moore and then proceeding to say that having my child in a school that teaches values and respect along with the three R's was filling her head with bovine excrement. My point was that when indulging in one's personal rights and responsibilities it is wise to temper that with a little bit of consideration for those around you. Not only wise but considerate - in any community respect for others is never a bad thing. I would respectfully ask others not to ram their self expression in my face and there are some things that are best not done in public. That was my point, show a little bit of respect for others. It is, after all, a style forum and it seems unfortunate that a moderator would first throw out troll-bait with a political diatribe that is totally unrelated and then proceed to call someone's beliefs BS. That was my point and it was out of line. I'm all for liberal freedom of speech policies and against censorship. My freedom of speech and right to express my viewpoint is thus summed up not to attack anyone else's beliefs but rather to politely request that they show a little polite consideration for other's beliefs. So now we've at least confirmed that Chuck doesn't always laugh and smile and can get seriously pissed off if you press the right button - it is actually pretty hard to do that but a simple implication that my child is being taught BS will probably do it every time. See, I don't define my identity through a tee-shirt, I suppose I define it by being the best father I can possibly be so an implication that I'm doing a poor job of it is likely to draw the same response you get if you poke a rattlesnake. Meanwhile, fine, I'll let it go and I'm not one to hold grudges and I'll go back to my original point - have a little bit of respect for others when pulling on your tee shirt or hitting a submit button.
post #32 of 60
The irony here is that the 15 year old snot wearing the shirt probably hasn't even managed to get himself to second base yet.
post #33 of 60
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The irony here is that the 15 year old snot wearing the shirt probably hasn't even managed to get himself to second base yet.
LOL. Very probable. I can't believe I posted what I did last night... Jon.
post #34 of 60
this conversation made me think of this ad i recently saw for KY jelly. I thought it was funny. -Tom
post #35 of 60
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(montecristo#4 @ 22 Aug. 2004, 1:41) The irony here is that the 15 year old snot wearing the shirt probably hasn't even managed to get himself to second base yet.
LOL. Very probable. I can't believe I posted what I did last night... Jon.
This thread has been bringing out different sides of people. Oh, and that was a very coherent post last night - impressive.
post #36 of 60
Reminds me of not so very long ago in New York City, I was at a restaurant in the Village, and a man came in wearing a thong, long socks, and engineer boots (nothing else.) He was refused service, and asked to leave. He made a scene, ranting about discrimination, and his right to wear whatever he wanted. The restaurant manager responded that the issue wasn't his right to wear what he chose, but the other customers' right not to have to look at him in his underwear. He then got ejected. There was a hearty round of applause from the restaurant patrons. As to raising kids, I have to second Carlo's thoughts on the issue. I've been lucky so far. Up until 4th grade, my oldest son thought that the "f-word" was "fart."
post #37 of 60
Well, late to the party on this one, but I'm with FIH and Chuck--let's take him out back and beat him with seven-folds. Alan (father of two daughters, 2 and 4, and regular espouser of Christian beliefs and the need to follow them, without apology)
post #38 of 60
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Originally Posted by imageWIS,22 Aug. 2004, 1:15
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Originally Posted by montecristo#4,22 Aug. 2004, 1:41
The irony here is that the 15 year old snot wearing the shirt probably hasn't even managed to get himself to second base yet.
LOL. Very probable. I can't believe I posted what I did last night... Jon.
This thread has been bringing out different sides of people. Oh, and that was a very coherent post last night - impressive.
Well, unfortunately, I ended up drinking the worst kind of alcoholic drink: the one made with almost 50% Grey Goose, but you can't taste the alcohol since the rest of the ingredients, primarily lemonade in this particular drink blocked any trace elements; after you down a couple, you notice that its stronger than you originally thought. I did notice that I made a few egregious spelling errors, but have edited them. Jon.
post #39 of 60
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Valmont  (and others) Sorry but I believe you are mixing up personal freedom and manners. Personal freedom allows a person to do, think, say anything that will have consequences on no others than the subject. Manners come into the picture when we have to interact with other individuals and they are a code which is necessary to prevent people from disturbing each other. They are the base of civilized co-existence. I will always stand for personal freedom (speech, religion, abortion and so on). I will always despise bad manners. If two adults decide to make a home-porn and a third adult decides to buy it, I see nothing bad in it. If someone tells teenagers (who do not have a fully developed capability of judgement) that is not only acceptable, but even cool to walk around with a shirt which can result offensive for other persons, or that is ok to pee on the wall of hotel rooms or puke on each other (seen on MTV), or treat all women like dogs (nearly any rap song), then I think there is something wrong. PS: In Denmark we think to Sweden as a very puritan and oppressive country. So everything iin life is relative, as you can see.
I too despise bad manners, I think a lot of people here in Sweden and Scandinavia in general are just plain rude, we are not really social, we don't hold the door for the ladies, we most certainly don't get up and give our seat to an elderly person in the bus and so on.  Now you and I may be offended by the fact that someone is wearing a tee shirt that says FUCK on it, or we may be offended if someone slams the door in our face instead of politely holding it for us but it doesn't change the fact that acting like an uncivilized ash#le is his/her basic right. You say personal freedom is to say or do anything as long as it doesn't have consequences for others, well if that was the case then we wouldn't have much freedom at all.  I have the right to go straight up to the Swedish king shake the mans hand and tell him that I believe he is a useless idiot who wears nasty suits and has a skanky wife and a fit daughter that I like to stick it to. Now he might find this offensive and get really pissed off but it doesn't change the fact that I can still do it and get away unpunsihed cause I live in a FREE society, try pulling this trick on the Thai or Saudi Arabian king I bet you won't live to regret it. BTW I don't really see any reason why Danes should consider Sweden as puritan, if you are referring to the very liberal drug policies you guys have then sure but in general I find that Sweden, Norway and Denmark are pretty much similar. Only problem is that trying to understand what you guys are saying is a major pain in the a$$, so I always stick to English...
post #40 of 60
Might as well join in. I was a (and in almost all respects remain) a full-fledged, 100% hippie-type. I embraced and still embrace free-speech. It is part of why I became a civil rights lawyer. I aplaud the efforts of those who seek to unsettle, to rouse, to occaisionally inflame, and to otherwise challenge tired old notions. That being said, great freedom carries with it an even greater responsibility - the burden of judgment. In the absence of judgment, the exercise of freedom and the exercise of expression become little more than boorish behaviour that can never educate the intended audience. (Yes, I would defend the 15 year old's right to wear the stupid shirt and deplore the lack of judgment on the part of him and his parents that resulted in him leaving the house with such an irresponsible choice being expressed.) The tricky part with expression, and it is always tricky because it is largely subjective, is identifying the difference between meaningfully pushing against tired old mores, out-dated political paradigms, and inflexible social norms on the one hand and wearing vulgar commercial advertising on the other hand. With time and maturity, most people learn to distinguish. Until then, refusing to seat the offenders in restuarants or give them tours of the palace are perfectly reasonable responses. Unfortunately, public chastisement is unlikely to have much useful effect. On the christian school thing- Carlo's kid, Carlos' choice. By all measures, and based solely on his postings, the man is doing his best on the parenting gig - as a parent myself, I respect the choices irrespective of whether they would be mine.
post #41 of 60
A word, if you please, from a bona fide old goat (one who BTW has nothing but respect for those who bear responsibility--as he does not--for vulnerable children). A few months ago, forced to endure inattentive service at a restaurant where I expected the reverse, I found myself face to face with a few unpalatable facts--which I herewith convey to my revered fellow forum members. (a) If I so choose, my age, experience, income, and ample leisure time will allow me to spend many of my relatively few remaining days in a near-constant state of apoplectic indignation. (b) I am entirely free to devote any leftover time to impotent rants over the evils to which I am now, as I approach my dotage, so exquisitely attuned.  (Thus will I end as did the unfortunate person who once elicited this comment from George S. Kaufman. "Tell me, madam.  Have you ever had an unexpressed thought?") © Further, I am fully eligible to behave as if my vast experience and impeccable taste have wrapped me in a cloak of infallibility.  (Qualifying me for another of Kaufman's bon mots:  "Sir, I only wish I were as sure of anything as you are of everything.") Or (d) I can try, keeping in mind my own youthful indiscretions and gaucheries, to imitate the slack-cutting that my elders once reluctantly extended to me. Not that it's easy.
post #42 of 60
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You say personal freedom is to say or do anything as long as it doesn't have consequences for others, well if that was the case then we wouldn't have much freedom at all.  I have the right to go straight up to the Swedish king shake the mans hand and tell him that I believe he is a useless idiot who wears nasty suits and has a skanky wife and a fit daughter that I like to stick it to. Now he might find this offensive and get really pissed off but it doesn't change the fact that I can still do it and get away unpunsihed cause I live in a FREE society, try pulling this trick on the Thai or Saudi Arabian king I bet you won't live to regret it.
I don't think simply living in a "free country" gives one free writ to act like an idiot. Chuck's post about respect made a lot of sense. It's something in short supply these days. I believe that, as we are trying to enhance our own personal styles, it is imperative that we cultivate an elegance in all things, including behavior. As some of you can probably tell, I'm still working on this part.
post #43 of 60
Wonderful post, a short reply, if I may: "(a) If I so choose, my age, experience, income, and ample leisure time will allow me to spend many of my relatively few remaining days in a near-constant state of apoplectic indignation." Which would qualify you to host a politically oriented radio call-in show. Inasmuch as you can quote Kaufman so adroitly, which I truly admire, you might do rather well. "(b) I am entirely free to devote any leftover time to impotent rants over the evils to which I am now, as I approach my dotage, so exquisitely attuned." What better hobby? "© Further, I am fully eligible to behave as if my vast experience and impeccable taste have wrapped me in a cloak of infallibility." As my teen-age daughter so keenly reminds me, there is an inverse ratio between fallibility and age. The older I get, the stupier I seem to be.
post #44 of 60
Since I am not personally offended, I don't see a problem with it.. it's just a trend. Punk rock attitude is in, more or less. If he set out to piss you (or others) off, he accomplished his goal.
post #45 of 60
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(for instance, just take a look at the lyrics of most rap songs),
I'll try not to make this sound as utterly flammatory as I would like it to, but generalizations such as these are what I see as the perfect example of a (possibly) older person passing false judgements based on a tyrannical and horribly racist public media. Pardon me, sir, but have you ever listened to Electro? Look up Peaches, and GRAVY TRAIN....'s lyrics. Then look up Rock Bitch's lyrics, and if I did a little research I'm sure I could list out 100 more bands, who not only have crude and vulgar lyrics, but elicit sexual behavior on stage at live shows. Note: the examples given are all bands consisting of white members. How about the Sex Pistols, have you ever read into their lyrics? Now, look up lyrics of Jurassic 5, Dilated Peoples, Jemini, Madvillain, Prince Po, Kanye West, Rage Against the Machine and goodness, must I go on to list every hip hop/rap group that doesn't talk about orgies and booze? Perhaps the examples given are slightly esoteric in that only a portion of them are on main rotation on MTV, but then what about Blink 182, a 100% lilly white pop band whose lyrics tend to focus completely on sex in extremely immature context? Your comment, my friend, is a product of a unfathomably biased and racist sentiment that is taught to us by uncultured politicians and news reporters, aimed at further dividing the races and creating civil unrest among equal people. I know this post is a little harsh, but honestly, something needs to be said about this. I don't understand how people (I've heard this quote said numerous times. Oh, and with "mysogynist" attached to it as well) can make just wide judgements based on such inane information.
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