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post #2956 of 3318
Quote:
Originally Posted by TweedyProf View Post

Let's see if we can have a discussion on pairings. Argument encouraged, but with evidence and clear articulation of principles. 

@UrbanComposition
 's contributions to the 10/5 thread brought home the advantages of solid ties against patterned coats. Always a solid choice. Moving away from solids courts discord and incoherence. There's a middle ground, of course, coherent contrast. So what are the principles?

Each jacket will pose different challenges. I'm going to offer up three of my fits without comment (you can refer to the one that irked @greger
too if you wish...I am not offended). Exact colors can be ambiguous, so where it matters, I will clarify.

Use pics to articulate principles, but you will need to support claims with pictures (this doesn't work because Y as you can see in these other examples...). While this thread often is theoretically oriented, dressing well is in large part a perceptual skill, so evidence will need to be visual too. High marks for commentators who post their own fits.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)







Let me throw this into the mix. Non-solid tie and patterned jacket. Some pattern to the madness
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
20151108_082123-1.jpg
post #2957 of 3318
Monochrome looks. Something I admire

tumblr_o1y1je4pJz1qae3lao1_500.jpg

tumblr_njbh7lZN9H1sby8suo1_500.jpg
post #2958 of 3318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zr3rs View Post
 

Can't provide principles, but an example.

 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

 

Too much? I must admit that my vision is slightly green-impaired, so that is highly dangerous territory:embar:.

@zr3rs 

 

I like the orange of the madder here and there's lots to like about this. In the context of the current discussion, I would just say that the blue/green in the tie duplicates the blue/green in the jacket and given that coherent contrast is one of the issues we are discussing, one might ask: would a different set of colors work better in providing subtle contrast?

 

For example, a burgundy ground tie with perhaps muted gold/yellow medallions? So you'd get an interesting but subtle hue contrast: burgundy ground (tie), green overcheck secondary (jacket) contrast versus blue ground (jacket), yellow/gold secondary tie.

 

I like this challis from Cappelli just to give an idea of the rough range I'm imagining: 

 

 

I myself am not against echoing or even monochrome fits, as @kulata has provided. It doesn't always have to be contrast.

 

This is all to pick at nits, of course.  Where are tie and jacket from?

post #2959 of 3318
Quote:
Originally Posted by TweedyProf View Post
 

@zr3rs 

 

I like the orange of the madder here and there's lots to like about this. In the context of the current discussion, I would just say that the blue/green in the tie duplicates the blue/green in the jacket and given that coherent contrast is one of the issues we are discussing, one might ask: would a different set of colors work better in providing subtle contrast?

 

For example, a burgundy ground tie with perhaps muted gold/yellow medallions? So you'd get an interesting but subtle hue contrast: burgundy ground (tie), green overcheck secondary (jacket) contrast versus blue ground (jacket), yellow/gold secondary tie.

 

I like this challis from Cappelli just to give an idea of the rough range I'm imagining: 

 

 

I myself am not against echoing or even monochrome fits, as @kulata has provided. It doesn't always have to be contrast.

 

This is all to pick at nits, of course.  Where are tie and jacket from?

 

Tie is another Cappelli madder and the jacket is an Ariston fabric by Orazio Luciano.

 

You are right that bringing in complementary colours would be better. I would not wear this jacket and tie without the vest in between, but I think in this case different scale and texture seem to make it work. From a distance the colours tend to mix together and the different ratio of colours in the mix creates new hues. Again this seems to roughly work here.

post #2960 of 3318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zr3rs View Post
 

 

Tie is another Cappelli madder and the jacket is an Ariston fabric by Orazio Luciano.

 

You are right that bringing in complementary colours would be better. I would not wear this jacket and tie without the vest in between, but I think in this case different scale and texture seem to make it work. From a distance the colours tend to mix together and the different ratio of colours in the mix creates new hues. Again this seems to roughly work here.


Yes, I think it looks good. As I said, picking at nits.

 

Very nice jacket.

post #2961 of 3318
Quote:
Originally Posted by zr3rs View Post


You are right that bringing in complementary colours would be better. I would not wear this jacket and tie without the vest in between, but I think in this case different scale and texture seem to make it work. From a distance the colours tend to mix together and the different ratio of colours in the mix creates new hues. Again this seems to roughly work here.

I don't think it's the matching of hues that's the problem. I think it's that the tie looks like orange is the dominant color, and blue and green secondaries. What makes the visual message just a touch muddled is that the blue secondary in the tie is the same tint and shade, more or less, as the blue ground of the coat. So I think we have another principle: it is always dangerous to have what looks like a secondary color in the tie echo in hue, tint, and shade the ground color in the coat. This holds even when that color is one of the men's standards--blue, brown, gray, black, white. Look at this guy--gray is the most neutral of all colors, but the gray secondary in the tie matches the ground of the coat, and deep-sixes his ensemble.



For another example, this guy clearly knows what he's doing dress-wise, but his ensemble falls afoul of the principle. The navy secondary in the tie looks off with the navy ground of the suit.



Note though that it is fine to have a secondary in the tie that looks just as prominent as the ground be the same hue, tint, and shade as the coat ground. Here, SpooPoker's tie has a red ground, but the navy stripe is almost as prominent as the ground. That's fine, because the navy stripe looks as prominent as the red ground.



Of course, having the tie ground echo a secondary color in the coat is a classic pairing.





Just for kicks, here is a good example of the grave danger I mentioned upthread: having the secondary in the tie match the secondary in the shirt:


Edited by Testudo_Aubreii - 2/21/16 at 1:54pm
post #2962 of 3318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Testudo_Aubreii View Post


So I think we have another principle: it is always dangerous to have what looks like a secondary color in the tie echo in hue, tint, and shade the ground color in the coat. This holds even when that color is one of the men's standards--blue, brown, gray, black, white. Look at this guy--gray is the most neutral of all colors, but the gray secondary in the tie matches the ground of the coat, and deep-sixes his ensemble.



For another example, this guy clearly knows what he's doing dress-wise, but his ensemble falls afoul of the principle. The navy secondary in the tie looks off with the navy ground of the suit.



Note though that it is fine to have a secondary in the tie that looks just as prominent as the ground be the same hue, tint, and shade as the coat ground. Here, SpooPoker's tie has a red ground, but the navy stripe is almost as prominent as the ground. That's fine, because the navy stripe looks as prominent as the red ground.



 

 

I'm not sure I see a huge difference here @Testudo_Aubreii  My preference would be not to repeat the color at all, but if the second is ok, it's hard to see the first as not being ok. That's cutting it pretty fine, no? 

 

That said, I like the first less than the second. Will have to suss out why...

post #2963 of 3318
Quote:
Originally Posted by Testudo_Aubreii View Post


I don't think it's the matching of hues that's the problem. I think it's that the tie looks like orange is the dominant color, and blue and green secondaries. What makes the visual message just a touch muddled is that the blue secondary in the tie is the same tint and shade, more or less, as the blue ground of the coat. So I think we have another principle: it is always dangerous to have what looks like a secondary color in the tie echo in hue, tint, and shade the ground color in the coat.

 

 

That sounds reasonable, though it is probably more of a stronger - weaker distinction. I think it is rooted in the possible perception of pieces of the tie as parts of the coat, which confuses the eye/brain. When there are strong separator lines between tie and coat, or when the secondaries are pretty small, as in small neats, the effect is less noticeable than with mid-size colour blobs.

 

I guess that is why I did not like this, though there should be nothing wrong with it:

 

 

While here no confusion exists although it is pretty busy:

 

post #2964 of 3318
Quote:
Originally Posted by TweedyProf View Post
 

Very nice jacket.

 

Thanks.

post #2965 of 3318
Quote:
Originally Posted by zr3rs View Post


While here no confusion exists although it is pretty busy:



Quite right. The brown in the tie looks like the dominant color, so it goes nicely with the coat's brown secondary. That is a good ensemble, BTW: not easy to do.

With your orange/blue tie, the blue looks like it's a secondary color, even though it is strictly speaking the ground, with the orange/green patterns overlaying it. One of the tricky things about ties with strong medallions like that is that the medallions can be so prominent that they make an obvious ground color appear secondary, or vice versa.
post #2966 of 3318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
 

 

 

While here no confusion exists although it is pretty busy:

 

 

That is a rich ensemble, and much to appreciate. I might myself have gone with a solid shirt but I appreciate what you are doing. That's a Vanda challis, yes?

post #2967 of 3318
Quote:
Originally Posted by TweedyProf View Post
 

 

 That's a Vanda challis, yes?

Yes.

post #2968 of 3318
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zr3rs View Post
 

Yes.


It's pleasingly subtle. Related to your ensemble, I was inspired to wear a tattersall today. Colors are off. Nori green jacket with red/rust overcheck, dark brown cashmere tie (faint herringbone), brown, blue tattersall. Hank is rust, light brown, and purple. 

 

post #2969 of 3318
Quote:
Originally Posted by TweedyProf View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
It's pleasingly subtle. Related to your ensemble, I was inspired to wear a tattersall today. Colors are off. Nori green jacket with red/rust overcheck, dark brown cashmere tie (faint herringbone), brown, blue tattersall. Hank is rust, light brown, and purple. 



This I like quite a bit. It honors the principle that it is usually pleasing to have the primary color of the tie echo a secondary color in the shirt, and the principle that it is usually pleasing to have the tie primary be a complementary contrast with the ground and secondary in the coat.

The solid tie on a tattersall with a glen plaid coat avoids one small problem with @zr3rs's combination: the neats on the tie are very similar in scale to the check in his tattersall. That's what makes the ensemble pretty busy, as he put it. If the tie had considerably bigger medallions, like in some of Urban Compostition's recent postings, the busy-ness would be reduced.
post #2970 of 3318


This one looks to bland. The tie, ps and sunglasses kill it. PS should be something very different.



The vest seems to get lost. I think the tie contributes mostly to this problem. Nice to see a yellow shirt.
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