When is 'bespoke' tailoring not bespoke? A serious discussion...

Before I start, I should make it clear that what I am about to say is a general issue / question, not designed to attack or impugn any individuals or companies. And I would like the responses, if possible, to keep it that way. Positive examples are fine, but since the question is one that potentially concerns 'unethical practice', I don't want the thread to be used for specific and potentially libelous accusations (and nor, I expect, would Fok and SF management). And please don't try to guess who I am talking about because it will probably not be who you think anyway...

So here's the deal.

I've been talking to quite a lot of different tailors over the last few years. I got into a discussion with one tailor a while back, which has been troubling me ever since. The discussion was about the pictures iGents like to post online of their basted fittings etc. The tailor made the claim that quite a few of the pictures of the basted fittings that they have seen online were essentially either incompetent or in some cases, blatantly fake. By the former they meant that the basting stitches appeared to be done very sloppily. By the latter, they meant that in many of the pictures, basting stitching has essentially been added to a jacket or coat that was essentially already far beyond the basting stage and therefore many fundamental things could not now be changed. In some of these latter cases too, they said it was obvious that these so-called 'basting stitches' had also been done by machine when hand-making was being claimed. So essentially the client was being deliberately misled about what the process and essentially was being given a show of what they expected 'bespoke' to be, as opposed to actually having a bespoke garment made properly.

Now, I don't know how much of this spiel was professional rivalry, or was just mistaken, or was actually correct. They did, however, demonstrate to me then and there how easy it was for any competent tailor to do simple neat basting stitching by hand and some of the differences between hand and machine stitching.

So, what do people here think? Is this nothing to be concerned about? Is it common? Is it just a few charlatans? Is it just an inevitable result of increasing demand for 'bespoke' products at lower prices? How much should machines be part of bespoke, and particularly 'hand-made' bespoke processes? I'd be especially interested in tailors' opinions on this subject (or the multiple subjects this brings up).

I have no idea, but I do know that tailors love to talk **** about each other, and often assume that they know a lot more about another's operation than they actually do.



unbelragazzo said:

I have no idea, but I do know that tailors love to talk **** about each other, and often assume that they know a lot more about another's operation than they actually do.

Click to expand...

+10

I had a top NY tailor argue with me for a half hour that he knew, for a fact, that A&S had all their suits made in Hong Kong.

Another prominent Italian tailor told me that he had personally visited the top-secret factory in the English countryside that made all the suits on Savile Row.

Talors just love to spew bile about each other.

I guess I haven't spoken to that many tailors in my life but the few I've dealt with seem very reticent about commenting on other tailors' work even when prodded. I hope that's a good sign of their integrity and professionalism. Or maybe I'm just naive?

I think I'm to the point where it doesn't really matter what the true definition of "bespoke" is, or whether my garments are actually "bespoke." What matters to me is the end result and also that I'm getting what I paid for. Depending on the circumstance, I think the line between MTM (with additional alterations) and bespoke has been completely blurred. If I'm told that the suit was canvassed by hand, yes, it should be canvassed by hand.

I think your post is addressing the latter issue. Visible hand-stitching should be easy enough to detect with the naked eye; harder to tell from photos. The client shouldn't be fooled on this, but it's terrible for all parties if he is. Fittings during the process help ensure that the finish product is the best it can be. They are time consuming both for the client and tailor. I think they should be encouraged whether the garment is truly bespoke or not.

This thread is no fun without names.



Renault78law said:

Visible hand-stitching should be easy enough to detect with the naked eye;

Click to expand...

FWIW, I don't think this is true, at least not for everybody. More importantly, it's possible to have the insides made by machine and then do some cosmetic hand flourishes on the outside, and then even an expert may not be able to tell the difference. Personally I don't have the hand job fetish some people seem to, but it's pretty hard to tell fake from real at this point.

Interesting. I've never heard a tailor denigrate another's work. Some of the Italian's hate the non-Italian clothes that I wear, but that has struck me more as a stylistic preference than an attack on someone else's work. I once begged a shoemaker to help me identify things wrong with another's shoes that I was wearing and I eventually got them to give some modest criticism (as well as an offer to try to fix them).

Anyway, after doing this for a long time and spending a lot of money with a lot of different people, I've come to the conclusion that I want the same person doing the measuring, cutting and fitting for my clothes. If the person who is cutting my suit hasn't measured me in person, then I don't think of it as bespoke. That isn't a verdict on the final product as suits can come out wonderfully or badly regardless of the method, but I want a single person to take ownership of the most crucial parts of the process.

agjiffy said:

I've come to the conclusion that I want the same person doing the measuring, cutting and fitting for my clothes. If the person who is cutting my suit hasn't measured me in person, then I don't think of it as bespoke.

Click to expand...

So that's most of Savile Row out then, surely? Almost all the shops on the Row employ fitters, cutters (of various kinds) etc. and there has been a distinction for a long time, hasn't there? Different people also make the coats and the trousers in most cases, but most of the time you will not get the guy who cuts the trousers coming to measure you for the trousers. They might come and have a look at things during a later fitting. Or have I just been misled on this?



FlyingMonkey said:

So that's most of Savile Row out then, surely? Almost all the shops on the Row employ fitters, cutters (of various kinds) etc. and there has been a distinction for a long time, hasn't there? Different people also make the coats and the trousers in most cases, but most of the time you will not get the guy who cuts the trousers coming to measure you for the trousers. They might come and have a look at things during a later fitting. Or have I just been misled on this?

Click to expand...

You haven't been misled - most SR firms have fitters = cutters for the coats. Trousers are cut by seperate makers - frankly, I don't think it's a big deal - trousers are (much) easier to cut and fit, and (as a general matter) nearly all senior cutters (i.e. coat cutters) have spent quite awhile learning how to properly cut and fit trousers as well. They just don't focus on trousers any longer.

Grammaton Cleric said:

You haven't been misled - most SR firms have fitters = cutters for the coats. Trousers are cut by seperate makers - frankly, I don't think it's a big deal - trousers are (much) easier to cut and fit, and (as a general matter) nearly all senior cutters (i.e. coat cutters) have spent quite awhile learning how to properly cut and fit trousers as well. They just don't focus on trousers any longer.

Click to expand...

Exaclty, and you wouldn't seriously say that Savile Row's tailors were not bespoke, would you? So, I'd conclude that @agjiffy is operating with a rather extreme definition that doesn't really help us very much here. If we were looking at suits being cut off premises, of in a factory as opposed to by hand-made and in-house, then you're certainly in the realm of MTM. And this gets back to the questions I originally posed... I don't have any objection to MTM, but I would object to MTM being presented as bespoke, given the significant price difference and supposed level of skill involved at all stages.



FlyingMonkey said:

Exaclty, and you wouldn't seriously say that Savile Row's tailors were not bespoke, would you? So, I'd conclude that @agjiffy
is operating with a rather extreme definition that doesn't really help us very much here. If we were looking at suits being cut off premises, of in a factory as opposed to by hand-made and in-house, then you're certainly in the realm of MTM. And this gets back to the questions I originally posed... I don't have any objection to MTM, but I would object to MTM being presented as bespoke, given the significant price difference and supposed level of skill involved at all stages. 

Click to expand...

I agree - by agiffy's limiting definition, Rubinacci, Caraceni Roma (who have specialist trouser cutters as well), Knize etc. would also join their SR cousins in the 'false bespoke' category.



FlyingMonkey said:

So that's most of Savile Row out then, surely? Almost all the shops on the Row employ fitters, cutters (of various kinds) etc. and there has been a distinction for a long time, hasn't there? Different people also make the coats and the trousers in most cases, but most of the time you will not get the guy who cuts the trousers coming to measure you for the trousers. They might come and have a look at things during a later fitting. Or have I just been misled on this?

Click to expand...

No idea where you get your info but the Savile row firms that I've used have a cutter doing the initial measurements, cutting and subsequent fittings. That covers kilgour and huntsman. My understanding is that RA is the same but I gave no personal experience. So what firms are you talking about where the head cutter won't measure or do the fittings?

agjiffy said:

No idea where you get your info but the Savile row firms that I've used have a cutter doing the initial measurements, cutting and subsequent fittings. That covers kilgour and huntsman. My understanding is that RA is the same but I gave no personal experience. So what firms are you talking about where the head cutter won't measure or do the fittings?

Click to expand...

Well, they don't cut your trousers which means even where the head cutter is the fitter, your whole suit will not be made by the person who measures you and in addition, the head cutter is not necessarily the person who will actually cut your coat if he or she measures you. Or do you think that the head cutter makes all the parts of every bespoke garment personally? That would mean very few garments were really bespoke and a lot of idle tailors!



FlyingMonkey said:

Well, they don't cut your trousers which means even where the head cutter is the fitter, your whole suit will not be made by the person who measures you and in addition, the head cutter is not necessarily the person who will actually cut your coat if he or she measures you. Or do you think that the head cutter makes all the parts of every bespoke garment personally? That would mean very few garments were really bespoke and a lot of idle tailors!

Click to expand...

My huntsman trousers were all cut by pat Murphy. They literally have his initials on them because he was the cutter. And of course he didn't make them. He is a cutter. He cuts the fabric. That doesn't mean he sews the pieces together. There are trousers makers and coat makers throughout the row. But they don't cut fabric. That is why I'm using the word "cutter".