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Stretching shoes - Page 5

post #61 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

...

Since we both agree, that the insole can not be stretched.
Here is what I asked (and was not addressed):
You're concern of “joint relative to heel” has no relativity in my approach here. And to take your concern further, We all consist of a skeletal make-up. Bones vary in length, width, girth, weight, I'm sure other things. If you take 50 men 6 foot 190 pounds exactly the same. Measure from the center of their elbow to their wrist, are they all going to be the same? Chances are their will be discrepancy's in single bodies rather than the whole test market. So, what does that have to do with creating more length or width in a shoe relative to heel/joint perfections?

I don't know how to address your "question" (?) because I am not sure it is a question...

If we both agree that the insole cannot be stretched, I ask again what's left to stretch?

The heel stiffener and the toe stiffener create barriers to stretching. It's like a concrete apron (the insole) with brick walls (toe and heel stiffeners) at either end. There is no way, consistent with logic and the laws of physics (as we understand them in this universe), that you can make the distance between the brick walls longer without breaking down the brick walls or tearing up the concrete apron.

The following (which you seem eager to ignore) is a fair representation of what has to happen when you stretch a shoe lengthwise:

500

The issue of discrepancies in body measurements is a red herring. Of course people have different sized feet. This is the reason shoes are sized. And the critical gauge of foot size is heel to ball, not heel to toe. You cannot expect a "6 foot 190 pound" man with a size 7 foot to fit into a size 10 shoe, anymore than you can expect a "6 foot 190 pound" man with a size 10 foot to fit into a size 7 shoe....no matter how much you stretch it.

Now...just in case...I have never said you cannot stretch a shoe lengthwise. I said you cannot stretch a shoe lengthwise without distorting or ruining it. If you are willing to ruin a shoe you can do just about anything with it...shrink it several sizes, flatten it like a pancake, twist the toe up and over into the shoe itself. Again, just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

I don't care how long you've been stretching shoes lengthwise or how many you've done or had done. Follow the logic. All the rest is uninformed supposition and hyperbole.
Edited by DWFII - 8/21/11 at 9:09am
post #62 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


I don't know how to address your "question" (?) because I am not sure it is a question...

If we both agree that the insole cannot be stretched, I ask again what's left to stretch?

The heel stiffener and the toe stiffener create barriers to stretching. It's like a concrete apron (the insole) with brick walls (toe and heel stiffeners) at either end. There is no way, consistent with logic and the laws of physics (as we understand them in this universe), that you can make the distance between the brick walls longer without breaking down the brick walls or tearing up the concrete apron.

The following (which you seem eager to ignore) is a fair representation of what has to happen when you stretch a shoe lengthwise:

500

The issue of discrepancies in body measurements is a red herring. Of course people have different sized feet. This is the reason shoes are sized. And the critical gauge of foot size is heel to ball, not heel to toe. You cannot expect a "6 foot 190 pound" man with a size 7 foot to fit into a size 10 shoe, anymore than you can expect a "6 foot 190 pound" man with a size 10 foot to fit into a size 7 shoe....no matter how much you stretch it.

Now...just in case...I have never said you cannot stretch a shoe lengthwise. I said you cannot stretch a shoe lengthwise without distorting or ruining it. If you are willing to ruin a shoe you can do just about anything with it...shrink it several sizes, flatten it like a pancake, twist the toe up and over into the shoe itself. Again, just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

I don't care how long you've been stretching shoes lengthwise or how many you've done or had done. Follow the logic. All the rest is uninformed supposition and hyperbole.

I never said much of what you are insinuating. I understand "heel to ball" is crucial. So is ball to end of toe in terms of comfort. I don't think you can argue that of our structural differences vary from person to person. Apparently, you didn't understand my point so, I'll ask it differently. Take 50 guys that wear a 9-D (on average, yes I know it depends on the last). Is the dimension from joint to heel exactly the same on all of them?
I'm saying we have and do stretch shoes every day without "distorting or ruining them".
My customers are happy with the results and we have no problems or complaints.
BTW, we also raise toe boxes and insteps.
Have you ever in your 40 years made a pair of boots for a customer that complained that were too tight? I mean, come on, 40 years? It had to happen....
Assuming it did, What did you do?
post #63 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

Take 50 guys that wear a 9-D (on average, yes I know it depends on the last). Is the dimension from joint to heel exactly the same on all of them?

Of course not. So what?

But, if they are true 9's, the heel to ball will, indeed, be the same.

I think you're conflating foot size with shoe size. They are not the same. For instance, a man with a foot that measures 9-7/8" long would generally have a heel to ball of 7-1/4". That same man might wear a size 7 or a size 6, or even a size 9, shoe depending on the last. But if he were being fit correctly, the heel to ball distance would be the same in all three sizes of lasts.

Shoe sizes are arbitrary--a number stamped on the last. Foot measurements are not.

Quote:
I'm saying we have and do stretch shoes every day without "distorting or ruining them".

If you really believe that, i suspect you need a different (better) definition of what distortion...and ruination...is.

Quote:
My customers are happy with the results and we have no problems or complaints.

Blah, blah blah. If a customer pays for something he wants it to be satisfactory, even exemplary, regardless of whether it is or isn't. Otherwise he feels cheated. But whether he says he's happy or not doesn't have anything to do with what has actually been done to his shoes.
Quote:
BTW, we also raise toe boxes and insteps.

Toe boxes are problematic. They are made either of the same material that the insole is made of, or paper or celastic--a resin saturated fabric/felt. They are attached to the insole and raising them has to break them down in some way...either tearing them from the insole or creating a separation of fibers in the box itself.

Insteps I have no problem with.
Quote:
Have you ever in your 40 years made a pair of boots for a customer that complained that were too tight? I mean, come on, 40 years? It had to happen....

Of course I have. Any shoemaker who says he's never had a misfit is either lying or needs a better (different?) definition for "fit."

My responsibility as an ethical maker/businessman is to acknowledge that the boots are too tight and not let the customer convince me that they "feel great."

My responsibility to my own integrity...to truth...is to recognize that I have fallen short and/or made a mistake...and try to learn from it.

And never, ever, ever, to adamantly insist that my initial judgement was correct when it obviously was not or that I'm correct because "that's the way we've always done it" or "that's the way my father did it"...etc..
post #64 of 98
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post #65 of 98
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post #66 of 98
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post #67 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


Of course not. So what?

But, if they are true 9's, the heel to ball will, indeed, be the same.

I think you're conflating foot size with shoe size. They are not the same. For instance, a man with a foot that measures 9-7/8" long would generally have a heel to ball of 7-1/4". That same man might wear a size 7 or a size 6, or even a size 9, shoe depending on the last. But if he were being fit correctly, the heel to ball distance would be the same in all three sizes of lasts.

Shoe sizes are arbitrary--a number stamped on the last. Foot measurements are not.




If you really believe that, i suspect you need a different (better) definition of what distortion...and ruination...is.




Blah, blah blah. If a customer pays for something he wants it to be satisfactory, even exemplary, regardless of whether it is or isn't. Otherwise he feels cheated. But whether he says he's happy or not doesn't have anything to do with what has actually been done to his shoes.



Toe boxes are problematic. They are made either of the same material that the insole is made of, or paper or celastic--a resin saturated fabric/felt. They are attached to the insole and raising them has to break them down in some way...either tearing them from the insole or creating a separation of fibers in the box itself.

Insteps I have no problem with.



Of course I have. Any shoemaker who says he's never had a misfit is either lying or needs a better (different?) definition for "fit."

My responsibility as an ethical maker/businessman is to acknowledge that the boots are too tight and not let the customer convince me that they "feel great."

My responsibility to my own integrity...to truth...is to recognize that I have fallen short and/or made a mistake...and try to learn from it.

And never, ever, ever, to adamantly insist that my initial judgement was correct when it obviously was not or that I'm correct because "that's the way we've always done it" or "that's the way my father did it"...etc..


Precisely my point.....First you say "if they are true 9's the heel to ball will be the same". Then you say " a man with a foot that measures 9 7/8 long would GENERALLY have a heel to ball 71/4". Which one is it? All I ever said since you brought it up is, the difference you are talking about is so minute it's irrelevant. Then you go on about definitions of distortion and ruination again brining my integrity into question. I don't need your blessings.....
I know the effort that I put into satisfying my customers. There are times that I refuse jobs because I know they won't be right. Big deal, who are you that I have to prove my integrity to?
I'm confused, are you implying that all the success we have have with are stretching process is a figment of the customers imagination? Maybe in a one horse town that could happen not in "The Big Apple". Those Guy's know what's going on. I respect them and they respect me.
My question about making a pair of boots that were to short never got answered (aside from skirting the issue). I didn't ask about "convincing the customer".
I didn't question your integrity....I simply asked, what do you do in such cases. Surely I would expect that you make Him/Her a new pair from scratch...Right?
post #68 of 98
DWFII & Nick

Not to interrupt you guys, but I have two questions.

First, can you stretch patent leather at all or will it crack?

Second, if, in classically-styled shoes, your toes are about two sizes from the actual end of the shoes, won't stretching the width one size give the impression that you have lengthened the shoes? Your toes (probably, specifically, your big toe) isn't really hitting the end of the shoe when you think the shoe is too short. Rather, it is hitting the side of the shoe where the toe box starts to curve inward. If you widen the shoe, your big toe won't hit the side wall of the toe box any more and you will think it is longer, even though it is not.
post #69 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post


Precisely my point.....First you say "if they are true 9's the heel to ball will be the same". Then you say " a man with a foot that measures 9 7/8 long would GENERALLY have a heel to ball 71/4". Which one is it? All I ever said since you brought it up is, the difference you are talking about is so minute it's irrelevant. Then you go on about definitions of distortion and ruination again brining my integrity into question. I don't need your blessings.....
I know the effort that I put into satisfying my customers. There are times that I refuse jobs because I know they won't be right. Big deal, who are you that I have to prove my integrity to?
I'm confused, are you implying that all the success we have have with are stretching process is a figment of the customers imagination? Maybe in a one horse town that could happen not in "The Big Apple". Those Guy's know what's going on. I respect them and they respect me.
My question about making a pair of boots that were to short never got answered (aside from skirting the issue). I didn't ask about "convincing the customer".
I didn't question your integrity....I simply asked, what do you do in such cases. Surely I would expect that you make Him/Her a new pair from scratch...Right?

I think you "doth protest too much." I never raised any question about your integrity...I spoke of my own sensibilities in that regard. If you feel slighted by comparison, that's your lookout.

I repeat...size numbers on lasts are arbitrary. I don't make shoes by size. No bespoke maker I know does. We use measurements. Nearly every manufacturing country in the world has a "ideal" foot measurement to last size standard. But companies don't always adhere to them. Again you're conflating two different things. You cannot fit a foot by size number.

Am I implying that your "success" is a figment of the customer's imagination? In a sense, yes, I am.

Fit is not...let me repeat not...about whether the customer complains or not. It is about whether the foot has enough room inside the shoe to function properly; it is about whether the ball joint is socketed where the last and the shoe intended it to be socketed. It is about whether the heelseat width or the treadline width correspond to the actual amount of weight bearing flesh that touches the ground. It is about whether the foot is supported where, and as, it should be....because that's really the proper job of the shoe.

It is about whether the heel stiffener walks out of shape within a relatively short period of time after you've stretched for length simply because you've forced the os calcis to sit on top of a section of heel stiffener instead of entirely on the insole where it belongs.

If a customer buys a pair of shoes and they are two sizes too short for him , the chances approach certainty that he'd be delighted with, and more comfortable in the box the shoes came in than the shoes themselves.

But that is not a fit.

If the foot were boneless, if it did not bear an incredible amount of weight (pounds per inch) through the very critical and complex motion of gait...and all the while adjusting minutely and continuously to maintain balance...none of this would make any difference. Indeed the shoe box would be a legitimate alternative to shoes. Unfortunately for your thesis, the foot is not constructed that way and will not conform to any assumptions not based on the reality of foot mechanics..

You'll pardon my presumption (or not) but I know where you're coming from. I've been there. But you're really out on a limb here. Every word you post digs the hole deeper. You're not addressing the mechanics of the foot or the shoe. You're not addressing the issues. I don't care if you stretch shoes lengthwise til the last trumpet blows but people reading this thread (all three of them) ought to know the facts.

The facts based on the measurements, the design principles that go into a shoe, and the physics of the problem. Not on urban legend.
post #70 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

But, if they are true 9's, the heel to ball will, indeed, be the same.

I think you're conflating foot size with shoe size. They are not the same. For instance, a man with a foot that measures 9-7/8" long would generally have a heel to ball of 7-1/4". That same man might wear a size 7 or a size 6, or even a size 9, shoe depending on the last. But if he were being fit correctly, the heel to ball distance would be the same in all three sizes of lasts.

I have a question, isn't foot length normally how shoe size is usually determined? Is there another method that's used?
post #71 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bounder View Post

DWFII & Nick

Not to interrupt you guys, but I have two questions.

First, can you stretch patent leather at all or will it crack?

Second, if, in classically-styled shoes, your toes are about two sizes from the actual end of the shoes, won't stretching the width one size give the impression that you have lengthened the shoes? Your toes (probably, specifically, your big toe) isn't really hitting the end of the shoe when you think the shoe is too short. Rather, it is hitting the side of the shoe where the toe box starts to curve inward. If you widen the shoe, your big toe won't hit the side wall of the toe box any more and you will think it is longer, even though it is not.

I don't have an answer for the first question. Contemporary patent leather is vinyl bonded to poor quality cow or calf--the ultimate "corrected grain" leather. I don't like it. I don't/won't use it.

As for the other question...I believe you're correct., I have heard that all my career. In fact, I suspect that there is some of that occurring with the fancy machines that cobblers use to stretch a shoe lengthwise--it's actually a widthwise stretch.

But there is a danger here too, with regard to distortion. If the shoe is so short that it needs to be stretched lengthwise, such stretching has to be applied in the area of the toe stiffener. So stretching the shoe that far forward...sidewise ,or up and down...will distort the shape of the toe stiffener and perhaps even destroy its ability to be a toe stiffener.
post #72 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


I think you "doth protest too much." I never raised any question about your integrity...I spoke of my own sensibilities in that regard. If you feel slighted by comparison, that's your lookout.

I repeat...size numbers on lasts are arbitrary. I don't make shoes by size. No bespoke maker I know does. We use measurements. Nearly every manufacturing country in the world has a "ideal" foot measurement to last size standard. But companies don't always adhere to them. Again you're conflating two different things. You cannot fit a foot by size number.

Am I implying that your "success" is a figment of the customer's imagination? In a sense, yes, I am.

Fit is not...let me repeat not...about whether the customer complains or not. It is about whether the foot has enough room inside the shoe to function properly; it is about whether the ball joint is socketed where the last and the shoe intended it to be socketed. It is about whether the heelseat width or the treadline width correspond to the actual amount of weight bearing flesh that touches the ground. It is about whether the foot is supported where, and as, it should be....because that's really the proper job of the shoe.

It is about whether the heel stiffener walks out of shape within a relatively short period of time after you've stretched for length simply because you've forced the os calcis to sit on top of a section of heel stiffener instead of entirely on the insole where it belongs.

If a customer buys a pair of shoes and they are two sizes too short for him , the chances approach certainty that he'd be delighted with, and more comfortable in the box the shoes came in than the shoes themselves.

But that is not a fit.

If the foot were boneless, if it did not bear an incredible amount of weight (pounds per inch) through the very critical and complex motion of gait...and all the while adjusting minutely and continuously to maintain balance...none of this would make any difference. Indeed the shoe box would be a legitimate alternative to shoes. Unfortunately for your thesis, the foot is not constructed that way and will not conform to any assumptions not based on the reality of foot mechanics..

You'll pardon my presumption (or not) but I know where you're coming from. I've been there. But you're really out on a limb here. Every word you post digs the hole deeper. You're not addressing the mechanics of the foot or the shoe. You're not addressing the issues. I don't care if you stretch shoes lengthwise til the last trumpet blows but people reading this thread (all three of them) ought to know the facts.

The facts based on the measurements, the design principles that go into a shoe, and the physics of the problem. Not on urban legend.

This is becoming ridiculous. You still haven't answered my very fair questions. Why??
post #73 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by facet View Post


I have a question, isn't foot length normally how shoe size is usually determined? Is there another method that's used?

Lastmakers...commercial lastmakers...and the manufacturing sector have tried for years to establish a "standard" for sizes of lasts. Not very successfully.

That's one thing.

The other is that some people have long toes and some have short toes. But since there always needs to be a clearance between the end of the toes and the inside wall of the shoe--the foot actually squirts forward or elongates during walking--true foot sizes have to be measured from the back of the heel to the middle of the medial ball joint. To the extent that a model of last conforms to actual foot sizes, the last too will be graded according to the distance between the back of the heel of the last and the medial ball joint on the last. When these two factors are synchronized the longitudinal arch of the foot is supported correctly and the foot will bend where it should bend in the shoe. If the long arch is not supported correctly and the foot bends too far forward or too far back , the metatarsal arch is then also endangered.

Make no mistake, this won't show up tomorrow but it will manifest itself eventually.

If you go into a shoe store and ask to try on shoes, most of the time the salesman will measure the overall length of your foot. And that alone has contributed to the mistaken notion that foot length determines shoe size. But the salesman, like most salesmen, is assuming a statistical average.

Some few salesmen will measure the heel to ball, but unless they are very familiar with the line they're selling they have no way of knowing what the heel to ball actually is. The manufacturer ordinarily does not include that information.

Even with all the Brannock devices and Ritz sticks, in the end, most people fit themselves by trial and error. And how many times have you gone shopping for shoes thinking you were an 8 only to buy a 9--the discrepancies of the modern shoe sizing system.

For that matter, if you buy a fashion forward shoe that has three (or more) full sizes of clearance beyond the toe, what then? Clearly it doesn't conform to any heel to toe length measurement nor to what we are used to seeing our feet look like when we gaze down at them.. I suspect that a certain number of people who end up buying shorter shoes than they should be wearing do so because the shoe has a longer look than they are used to.
post #74 of 98
To give our two hotheads time to calm down.

For historical reasons, shoe size is the last size, not the size of the foot. Last size is the length of the foot plus the allowance in front of the toes. How much allowance is needed, depends on the shape of the toe (pointy toes need more than round ones), and the particular school of shoe/last-making which is varies in different parts of the world.

Although there is a modern system called “Mondopoint” which uses the length of the foot, it is sometimes used for trainers, but not at all for dress shoes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoe_size

P.S. Too late!

I hope, one of the moderators will close the thread, before irreparable damage to shoemaking has been done!
post #75 of 98
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post

To give our two hotheads time to calm down.

For historical reasons, shoe size is the last size, not the size of the foot. Last size is the length of the foot plus the allowance in front of the toes. How much allowance is needed, depends on the shape of the toe (pointy toes need more than round ones), and the particular school of shoe/last-making which is varies in different parts of the world.

Although there is a modern system called “Mondopoint” which uses the length of the foot, it is sometimes used for trainers, but not at all for dress shoes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shoe_size

I don't know who you're talking about...I am neither angry nor even very irritated. I do know what I'm talking about, however...as offensive as that may be to some. It is not Asimov's ignorance as knowledge.*

Beyond that, you are correct, shoe size is determined by last size. But last sizes are based on real world models of statistically average feet. Not even the most careless and indifferent manufacturer sizes shoes arbitrarily. If the last has a "9" printed on the side, the shoe will have a "9" printed inside. If the last maker has an order for a run of lasts based on a model that the shoe manufacturer...while commissioning the last...has determined will be sized one size small, the resulting last will be marked an "8" even if it more closely measures to the standard 9.

For that very reason...at least partially...bespoke makers do not ordinarily mark shoes with sizes. Shoe sizes, last sizes, are irrelevant. Only measurement counts. And the very most important measurement that is collected from the foot during the measuring process is the heel to ball measurement. If that measurement is not correct none of the others will be either.

*
Quote:
"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there always has been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov, column in Newsweek (21 January 1980)

Edited by DWFII - 8/21/11 at 3:01pm
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