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Gun Appreciation Thread - Page 237

post #3541 of 3771

You are missing the point, my dear Del: the maximum one could spend on shoes or guns is immaterial.  There is a point where they are as good as they can be in any practical sense.  For shoes, that means good leather, made bespoke to fit - which is expensive unless you go third world.  For guns, as good as they can be in any practical sense, could be as cheap as a $500 Glock with your favourite grips and a trigger job, and 100% made in Murrica.  I'd say your 586 meets the criteria quite neatly too.  You can buy guns or shoes with panda nipples, that is true.  But it doesn't make them better at being shoes, any more than genuine unicorn scales would make your 1911s shoot straighter.

post #3542 of 3771
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimo View Post

You are missing the point, my dear Del: the maximum one could spend on shoes or guns is immaterial.  There is a point where they are as good as they can be in any practical sense.  For shoes, that means good leather, made bespoke to fit - which is expensive unless you go third world.  For guns, as good as they can be in any practical sense, could be as cheap as a $500 Glock with your favourite grips and a trigger job, and 100% made in Murrica.  I'd say your 586 meets the criteria quite neatly too.  You can buy guns or shoes with panda nipples, that is true.  But it doesn't make them better at being shoes, any more than genuine unicorn scales would make your 1911s shoot straighter.

well hand fitting and match grade barrels and specifications like customized length of pull actually DO make them better at shooting. Thats why you can buy a decent rifle with a Sub MOA accuracy guarantee of 3 shots, or pay twice as much for one with a 5 shot sub moa guarantee. Im not talking fancy grips or panda nipples. Just like proper fit of a shoe will be better than an off the rack...a shotgun with a proper length of pull made for YOU will swing and shoot better than a standard silver pigeon.
post #3543 of 3771

Yeah, but buying one with the correct length of pull for you, or even replacing a stock, isn't very expensive - even in the USA.  You can even buy an adjustable stock, and some mass-produced quality guns have adjustable triggers.  But adjustable shoes, nah.

 

You are just being obtuse.  It's not the first time, young man.*frown*

post #3544 of 3771
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimo View Post

Yeah, but buying one with the correct length of pull for you, or even replacing a stock, isn't very expensive - even in the USA.  You can even buy an adjustable stock, and some mass-produced quality guns have adjustable triggers.  But adjustable shoes, nah.

You are just being obtuse.  It's not the first time, young man.*frown*


sure thing buddy. YOURE definitely right. smile.gif


but going back to YOUR original point that getting into guns is cheaper than getting into bespoke shoes.... youre wrong. flat out. It would be pretty difficult to spend 6 figures on a single pair of shoes, but pretty easy on a Purdy shotgun. We can argue semantics all day and dig in deeper, but all of my points have been in response to your original post that guns were cheaper than shoes.
post #3545 of 3771

No, I said very good guns can be had cheaper than very good shoes.  But I love you.

post #3546 of 3771
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimo View Post

No, I said very good guns can be had cheaper than very good shoes.  But I love you.

which is still bullshit. But alas, arguing with a brit on firearms is like talking about pussy with Liberace. wink.gif
post #3547 of 3771

Low blow!  Which I guess you could also discuss with Liberace.

 

Hey, did everybody leave? :hide:

post #3548 of 3771
Well, I suppose a lot of this is where you draw the line at "very good"--for both guns and shoes. Let's just keep this to shotguns. For the price of a pair of Allen-Edmonds "firsts," you can easily buy a Remington or Mossberg pump action shotgun. They are inelegant, mass produced things. They have no particular aesthetic appeal or "class." But, they generally work as they are supposed to, and a good wingshot can do just about anything that can be done with a shotgun nearly as well with one of these guns as with any shotgun. Does this make them "good guns"? (I might mention that my old boss Robert E. Petersen, who at one time owned a substantial percentage of all the London best guns ever made [really!], used a beat-up Browning Auto-5 as his "go to" gun for most hunting.) Most American men would regard A-Es as much more "upmarket" than a Remington 870. (I once calculated that about one in 20 American males owns an 870, myself included.)

Now, I don't know the current price of a pair of pair of John Lobb bespoke shoes, but I believe they are about $5,000. So let's say roughly 12X the price of a pair of A-Es.

According to my 2014 Blue Book of Gun Values, the price of a new Purdey best quality SxS was the vicinity of $117,000. Make it an over-under and you're looking at about $135,000.

If you wish to argue a machine-made repeater to a double-gun is an apples to oranges comparison, most of the cheapest imported doubles from places like Turkey start in the vicinity of $1,000, so we're still looking at a differential of 100X from cheapest to best.

The math speaks for itself, it seems to me.
post #3549 of 3771

Yes, there is some truth in Derk's "what would a Brit know?" line, in that I know a lot more about shoes than guns.  And perhaps that's why I do indeed draw the line very differently: my basic precept is that shoes made bespoke are the step up to "very good" in that this is where they start to be functionally excellent - by fitting better.  Whereas, "very good" guns, in my simple view, begin with non-bespoke, mass-made items that can be adjusted easily and cheaply, or might not need any adjustment at all, to be functionally brilliant.  But it is indeed apples and oranges.

 

I would also like to apologise unreservedly to Derek for implying that this rabbit hole is insufficiently expensive.

post #3550 of 3771
Quote:
Originally Posted by mimo View Post

Yes, there is some truth in Derk's "what would a Brit know?" line, in that I know a lot more about shoes than guns.  And perhaps that's why I do indeed draw the line very differently: my basic precept is that shoes made bespoke are the step up to "very good" in that this is where they start to be functionally excellent - by fitting better.  Whereas, "very good" guns, in my simple view, begin with non-bespoke, mass-made items that can be adjusted easily and cheaply, or might not need any adjustment at all, to be functionally brilliant.  But it is indeed apples and oranges.

I would also like to apologise unreservedly to Derek for implying that this rabbit hole is insufficiently expensive.

Well, I would say that Glocks, which admittedly are very functional firearms, are to fine guns as Croc shoes (Do they still make those?) are to, not bespoke, but simply "good" shoes like A-E, Alden or C&J Benchgrades!
post #3551 of 3771

Aren't the best shotguns still made in England?

post #3552 of 3771
J: haha! As a lover of chunky revolvers, I get the plastic analogy just fine. But I would be a lot less embarrassed about owning a Glock.

BC: the best is hard to say, the most expensive maybe!
post #3553 of 3771

The type of shotgun action, pump, auto, over under, or side by side depends upon the type of hunting IMO. Dove or waterfowl hunting with that bass trombone pump? No. I use a Barretta  Pintail auto for that. For quail, pheasant, and chuckar I use a Citori over under. Works because you rarely get a second or third shot at those birds. If you want an inexpensive shotgun for defense and don't care about it being heavy and cumbersome a pump action is probably okay. Fit is important. Don't underestimate fit until you've tried a properly fitted gun over one that is not.

post #3554 of 3771
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLibourel View Post

Well, I would say that Glocks, which admittedly are very functional firearms, are to fine guns as Croc shoes (Do they still make those?) are to, not bespoke, but simply "good" shoes like A-E, Alden or C&J Benchgrades!

Some would define a fine gun as one that goes bang when you pull the trigger. Fine is arbitrarily defined depending on the intended use. I think fine shoes have more utility when compared to cheaper options.

For my intended use, a $5,000 handgun has no additional utility over a $500 glock.
post #3555 of 3771
Quote:
Originally Posted by suited View Post

Some would define a fine gun as one that goes bang when you pull the trigger. Fine is arbitrarily defined depending on the intended use. I think fine shoes have more utility when compared to cheaper options.

For my intended use, a $5,000 handgun has no additional utility over a $500 glock.

Well, back when I was in the gun mag business, it was sometimes my duty to review some really cheap handguns from outfits like Raven, Jennings, Lorcin and Davis. Most of them went "bang" every time I pulled the trigger. Quite often they grouped surprisingly well too. For reporting these facts, and facts they were, I was sometimes reviled for being a sellout, liar, whore and whatnot. Did I consider them "fine guns"? Hell, no! I doubt if the makers considered them "fine" guns, but they were affordable, and they worked, most of them. Were I nearly destitute, I should certainly have preferred a Davis .32 auto to no gun at all for protection.

All that Southern California "Ring of Fire" handgun industry is gone with the wind now. In those days, "Saturday Night Specials" were a favorite bugaboo of the anti-gun crowd. These days it's "deadly assault rifles." For a great deal of its history, there has always been a lot of class and covert racial bias in the anti-gun movement.

What defensive handgun costs anywhere near $5,000 unless it is engraved and gold-inlaid, maybe with ivory stocks? These high-dollar 1911 "custom carry" packages strike me as dictated more by ego gratification than any defensive necessity. Not that there is anything wrong with ego gratification. Otherwise, all my clothing would come from places like Target.
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