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Gun Appreciation Thread - Page 183

post #2731 of 3072
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

So those groups were about 1.5 inches on the last two groups. What would a good shooter do?

OK Piob, from what I gather you're resting your elbows on the table and the gun is not resting on a bag or anything that could be called benching it. Those groups of yours are very good. I would not expect to see 1.5 inch groups at 100 yds. from a beginner and you're doing it with a basic scoped 22 rifle and ammo. I personally think you're what's called a natural shooter.

What would a good shooter be able to do? As Caustic pointed out that's a loaded question. You could have hit the magic combination with that gun of yours and 1.5 inches is the best you'll see. Then again maybe not. You'll have to play with it and see. Shooting tight groups consistently is only part of a much bigger picture. A good shooter in my mind is one who can hit their intended target using various holds, over varying ranges and angles, while being able to take into account things like wind, weather, mirage, varying light conditions and so on.
post #2732 of 3072
Thanks for the input, gents. Crane, thank you for that very nice compliment but I have to say I'm pretty sure I'm not. As I said that was the second target sheet for the day...the first one looked nothing like that as I zero'ed that scope in. Also, my hand gun shooting is really nothing to brag about. I really need to work on my Glock and have to figure out how to sight iron sights...although I figure it's the same basic idea as what I did with the 10/22.

Hunts, was that just a trigger or a whole trigger group? I think I'm going to upgrade that at some point as the tiny little nub that holds the charging handle open is a pain and I see those nice trigger groups with the long handle for integrated bolt release and mag release. A page back I posted type of stock I'd like to upgrade to also. I'm trying to fight off the upgrade bug though until I get my new AR around tax return time next year. smile.gif
post #2733 of 3072
Piob. You should see some of my targets when I first go out. LOL! The thing I'm seeing is once you settle down and start to shoot you shoot well. I've seen this kind of thing before and I'm pretty sure what I said will end up being spot on over time. Also keep in mind that you can be a world class rifle shooter and not be able to hit the broad side of a barn from the inside with a pistol. One of the best pistol shooters I know (he taught me handgun shooting) couldn't shoot a rifle or shotgun to save his life. Now you say your handgun skills aren't up to par. Well defensive shooting with a Glock is not the same thing as precision shooting with a target pistol. I would encourage you to find a MKII Ruger slab side 22LR auto pistol to go with your 10/22. I would be willing to bet that in less than two hours of me coaching you with that pistol that you could hit clay pigeons at 50 yards with some frequency. I would go so far as to say you might be able to hit one at 100 yards if you put your mind to it. There's a lot to this as you're finding out. Just keep in mind that accuracy is the single most important thing you need to master. The simple reason is if you can't hit your target nothing else matters.
post #2734 of 3072
If concerned with defense, I say accuracy under stress. Target shooting, and defensive shooting are two different worlds.
post #2735 of 3072
Must fight Gun Acquisition Syndrome (GAS).
post #2736 of 3072
Give in. As long as you pay your bills and keep your spouse happy.
post #2737 of 3072
No, must fight. Just saw a Volquartsen 10/22 for 1.1k. There goes my AR if I don't fight this.
post #2738 of 3072
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Must fight Gun Acquisition Syndrome (GAS).

you can't... I bought more than ten in < 6 months... shog[1].gif

embrace it... I think I'm getting over the phase of buying and now starting to concentrate on accessories and very specific guns. Not that it gets any cheaper though smile.gif
post #2739 of 3072
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caustic Man View Post

If concerned with defense, I say accuracy under stress. Target shooting, and defensive shooting are two different worlds.

Yes they are two different worlds. Stress has a wonderful way of turning a good shot under relaxed conditions into someone who looks like they never handled a gun before. If we have time in a CCW class we demonstrate this by challenging someone to shoot against the clock. It tends to be a real eye opener. Obviously in a real world encounter the stress level is geometrically worse than beating a clock. Of course both worlds do share the exact same elements of good marksmanship. Fundamentals come first, then you add other elements.
post #2740 of 3072
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

Must fight Gun Acquisition Syndrome (GAS).

Good luck, once it bites you're infected with an incurable ailment.
post #2741 of 3072
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crane's View Post

Yes they are two different worlds. Stress has a wonderful way of turning a good shot under relaxed conditions into someone who looks like they never handled a gun before. If we have time in a CCW class we demonstrate this by challenging someone to shoot against the clock. It tends to be a real eye opener. Obviously in a real world encounter the stress level is geometrically worse than beating a clock. Of course both worlds do share the exact same elements of good marksmanship. Fundamentals come first, then you add other elements.

I've shot in competitions where new shooters will straight up freeze when that buzzer goes off. They just stand there and do nothing. And that's just the stress of shooting for time. It's all about building muscle memory.
post #2742 of 3072
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caustic Man View Post

I've shot in competitions where new shooters will straight up freeze when that buzzer goes off. They just stand there and do nothing. And that's just the stress of shooting for time. It's all about building muscle memory.

I'll have to disagree with you there. Muscle memory is what allows to be able to shoot reasonably well when you're fine muscle control goes out the window. Freezing is a product of poor mental conditioning.
post #2743 of 3072
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crane's View Post

I'll have to disagree with you there. Muscle memory is what allows to be able to shoot reasonably well when you're fine muscle control goes out the window. Freezing is a product of poor mental conditioning.

I disagree with your disagreement. I've been in situations were I reacted inspite of stress without consciously making a decision to do something. That's muscle memory. There is a great book on combat training, can't remember the name, but one of the anecdotes was about a WW2 machine gun team. The gunner was trained to tap his AG (assistant gunner) when he could no longer shoot so he could take over. The gunner was shot in the head and died in combat. Immediately after being shot, and probably seconds before dying, he tapped his AG, signaling him to take over. That's muscle memory. It has nothing to do with fine motor skills and everything to do with training to do something until you can't NOT do it given certain stimuli.
post #2744 of 3072
Sorry muscle memory does not work that way. Fine motor skills are typically controlled by higher thought processes. Gross motor skills are controlled more or less unconsciously. You walk without thinking about it. Why? Muscle memory. You get up and walk because you made the decision to do so. The entire point of practical firearms training is to get as many of the skills needed to use a firearm out of the conscious mind and into the realm of the unconscious. There is more to this too. The entire idea is to get to the point where drawing and firing is as easy as walking. No apparent thought involved, you just do. Freezing is a response associated with the fight or flight response. The brain says no go on an unconscious level and that's that. In fact the only way to override that decision is to do so using higher thought processes. I am correct in what I said earlier. It is a mental conditioning problem. If it didn't work this way brain stem CNS shots would not be the instant end to a situation. By the way you can sustain fatal head wounds and still retain the ability to make decisions and respond to situations.
post #2745 of 3072
I'm sorry, a lot of what you've said in this thread is bollocks. Fine motor skills have nothing to do with it. Fine motor skills are mitigated by using gross motor skills when possible, not by muscle memory. Somewhere along the line it seems like you have misunderstood the objectives of combat and defensive training. Fine motor skills break down with stress, muscle memory doesn't prevent this. You use muscle memory, or more accurately, training that developed muscle memory, to ingrain gross motor techniques. There is a difference. For instance, you can train yourself to finger the slide release every time. This can become ingrained. But it is a fine motor skill so no matter how much you train it will degrade with stress to some degree. You should strive to ingrain gross motor skills because they are less susceptible to degradation due to stress. I hope this makes the difference clear.
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