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Gun Appreciation Thread - Page 180

post #2686 of 3148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crane's View Post

Yes, seeing a red dot dancing on your chest is scary. Hollywood has made them famous and then the tacticool crowd just had to have them. Lasers are one of the most useless overrated pieces of hardware out there. There's also legal ramification too if you do shoot someone with a gun that has a laser. It can and will be played against you in court. Same goes for reloaded ammo, specialty ammo, other tacticool goodies and so on. Understand that this isn't me talking Piob, this is from my attorney who specializes in firearm incidents. He'll also tell you that it doesn't make sense but that's how it goes in court.

You're also wrong about which round is most likely going to over penetrate. Your 40 is more likely going to pass through more barriers and out into the street than a "typical" 5.56. That's just physics at work.

My state has very strong defense of castle laws and the prosecutor in my jurisdiction is very gun friendly. In order for something to end up in court you have to first be indicted.

I'm sort of puzzled though as to how a .40 caliber hollow point will penetrate more barriers than a .223 rifle bullet. Never claimed to be a gun expert so willing to be schooled on this.
post #2687 of 3148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

I'm sort of puzzled though as to how a .40 caliber hollow point will penetrate more barriers than a .223 rifle bullet. Never claimed to be a gun expert so willing to be schooled on this.

 

It won't. .223 and 5.56 are high pressure rifle rounds. Which isn't to say that a .40 wont over penetrate, however you gotta figure, a projectile leaving the muzzle at 3,000 fps, v. a projectile leaving the muzzle at, what, a max of 1,400 fps for +p loads, and an expanding round at that? I honestly don't know where that logic is coming from. And btw, unless you live in a log cabin, be concerned with over penetration. Just trust me on this. Or don't trust me and ask me about my experience with how far a 5.56 round can can go in an urban setting. The answer is "far". 

 

As to the laser thing, all I can tell you is what I've already said. No bad guy is going to stand still long enough to notice a little dot on his chest. He might notice the wildly flailing laser beam as you try to stop your hands from shaking and your heart from pounding, but that's probably it. And remember, lasers work both ways. I hope you never run into a bad guy who really wants to kill you and fires away at the big glowing source of your laser. But that's just my 0.02. My 0.02 was earned from 4 years in Iraq though, so take it or leave it.

post #2688 of 3148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caustic Man View Post

It won't. .223 and 5.56 are high pressure rifle rounds. Which isn't to say that a .40 wont over penetrate, however you gotta figure, a projectile leaving the muzzle at 3,000 fps, v. a projectile leaving the muzzle at, what, a max of 1,400 fps for +p loads, and an expanding round at that? I honestly don't know where that logic is coming from. And btw, unless you live in a log cabin, be concerned with over penetration. Just trust me on this. Or don't trust me and ask me about my experience with how far a 5.56 round can can go in an urban setting. The answer is "far". 

As to the laser thing, all I can tell you is what I've already said. No bad guy is going to stand still long enough to notice a little dot on his chest. He might notice the wildly flailing laser beam as you try to stop your hands from shaking and your heart from pounding, but that's probably it. And remember, lasers work both ways. I hope you never run into a bad guy who really wants to kill you and fires away at the big glowing source of your laser. But that's just my 0.02. My 0.02 was earned from 4 years in Iraq though, so take it or leave it.

I think what you faced in Iraq is nothing like what I would face in my home. I sincerely doubt I would be the target of any sort of pro or organized home invasion type people and think if I ever face anything it'll be someone that thought they'd head up to where I live for some easy money for a fix. I also think that is a pretty remote chance and that my home alarm would scare off most of those too. Basically I'm probably never going to need any gun to defend my home and this is probably overkill.

Thanks for confirming what I thought I knew about penetration (no homo). Also, my bedroom is such that there's about a mile between any of my outside walls and the next dwelling. It's not a log cabin but it's from from an urban setting.
post #2689 of 3148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post


I think what you faced in Iraq is nothing like what I would face in my home. I sincerely doubt I would be the target of any sort of pro or organized home invasion type people and think if I ever face anything it'll be someone that thought they'd head up to where I live for some easy money for a fix. I also think that is a pretty remote chance and that my home alarm would scare off most of those too. Basically I'm probably never going to need any gun to defend my home and this is probably overkill.

Thanks for confirming what I thought I knew about penetration (no homo). Also, my bedroom is such that there's about a mile between any of my outside walls and the next dwelling. It's not a log cabin but it's from from an urban setting.

 

I don't think you read my post very closely. Forgivable because I am often incoherent, but I don't think I was this time. I'm not saying your home is Iraq. Not sure where you got that from. I'm saying I have seen what rounds can do to buildings... in Iraq. Copy? 

 

As for your home, yeah that probably negates any concerns about over penetration. That is the only time I'd not be too concerned about it. However I home there is a mile between any of your other walls too, because if there is one thing I can say to anyone having to defend themselves, if you are planning to defend yourself in a particular place you can bet Murphy is going to come along and attack you somewhere else.

post #2690 of 3148
Ah, gotcha now. I was saying there was no chance I'd face an assailant like you faced in Iraq and it sounded like you were talking about someone you might have faced would have drawn a bead on you due to a laser (if you had one). Did not get in the least you were talking about buildings.
post #2691 of 3148
Piobaire, I think since you already have an AR lower say " Fuck it" and get the .50 beuwolf upper and call it a day.
post #2692 of 3148
Do not have an AR...yet. Only long gun currently is a plain old Ruger 10/22.
post #2693 of 3148

10/22s are awesome

post #2694 of 3148
10/22 FTW

my home defense plan...

1. Remington 870 with 71/2 birdshot 3 shells and 00buckshot 3 shells
2. FNH FNX .45 ACP (15 + 1 hollow points)
3. there may be something else but I'm not gonna tell you exactly what... satisfied.gif

if you pass through all of that then I'm fucked... crazy.gif
post #2695 of 3148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

My state has very strong defense of castle laws and the prosecutor in my jurisdiction is very gun friendly. In order for something to end up in court you have to first be indicted.

I'm sort of puzzled though as to how a .40 caliber hollow point will penetrate more barriers than a .223 rifle bullet. Never claimed to be a gun expert so willing to be schooled on this.

It revolves around the projectile weight, moment of inertia, scrubbed energy, deflection, rate of deceleration and a few other things. It's also pretty much common knowledge that hollowpoints don't expand when they hit things like wood, wall board and other building materials. They act like FMJs. In our world big game hunters are the people who know about what's needed for penetration. They go with large caliber heavy slugs that are driven at moderate velocities. The 458 Lott launches a 500gr slug at 2300 fps and delivers almost 8000 pounds of energy. Shoot the same slug from a 45-70 at about 1600 or so fps and it delivers around 3000 pounds of energy. You would think the Lott would go deeper right? Test after test and real world experience says the opposite is true. The slower slug will go through a Cape Buffalo front to back but the Lott stays in the animal. I make no claim to fully understand the physics behind the hows and whys but it's hard to argue with the results of side by side tests.
post #2696 of 3148
Quote:
Originally Posted by anginaprinzmetal View Post
if you pass through all of that then I'm fucked... crazy.gif

 

Nope. Throat punch.

post #2697 of 3148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crane's View Post


It revolves around the projectile weight, moment of inertia, scrubbed energy, deflection, rate of deceleration and a few other things. It's also pretty much common knowledge that hollowpoints don't expand when they hit things like wood, wall board and other building materials. They act like FMJs. In our world big game hunters are the people who know about what's needed for penetration. They go with large caliber heavy slugs that are driven at moderate velocities. The 458 Lott launches a 500gr slug at 2300 fps and delivers almost 8000 pounds of energy. Shoot the same slug from a 45-70 at about 1600 or so fps and it delivers around 3000 pounds of energy. You would think the Lott would go deeper right? Test after test and real world experience says the opposite is true. The slower slug will go through a Cape Buffalo front to back but the Lott stays in the animal. I make no claim to fully understand the physics behind the hows and whys but it's hard to argue with the results of side by side tests.

 

There is an a serious element that is being lost here. .40 S&W and other expanding rounds do not tend to fragment. The .223 does. When entering body tissue or, alternately, gelatin blocks the round will fragment, sometimes many times over. When facing dry wall, concrete blocks, or other "intermittent barriers" the .223, or at least the 5.56 loaded to NATO specifications, will penetrate MUCH farther. So the specifics are important here. 

post #2698 of 3148

Also, I might say that all the research I have seen that says the .223 doesn't penetrate as far as the .40 or other rounds was tested on the .223 HP round. Hardly a basis for suggesting to someone that the .223 penetrates less than the .40.

post #2699 of 3148
This is all too complicated for me. I've decided to buy an AR because I think it'll be fun to shoot at the range and I'm going to keep it locked up and put a baseball bat by the side of my bed.
post #2700 of 3148

Not to be a downer on the guy, but the Thompson is pretty accurate on its own, and also, like all the semi-auto-only replicas, is just a short barreled rifle. So it is easy to be that accurate when shooting it form the shoulder at pistol distances.

 

Doing that in automatic burst fire, though, is a trifle harder, though still not impossible because it is a well-controllable firearm (the weight helps).

 

If I could figure out how to crop a video, I'd post one.

 

~ H

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by GreenFrog View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Huntsman View Post

Yah, in the bottom pic I have the 30rd stick. The sticks are the most reliable, but simply dumping a 50rd drum is incredible fun!

There are two common 'styles' of TSMG, the Model of 1928 as above, and the M1 style. The M1 has the actuator on the side rather than the top, and only has the horizontal foregrip. It was the 'simplfied' version created to meet demand during WWII, when the Model of 1928 style could not be produced fast enough. The M1 does not take a drum, while the 1928 takes either. While the gun itself is surprisingly heavy, with a full 50 rd drum it is really heavy, and with a full 100rd drum its ridiculous.

Thompsons are remarkably accurate, even with the 10" barrel on the Class III Thompsons, and are remarkably controllable in burst fire, unlike some fully automatic subguns.  The modern replicas might be more accurate, as they have significantly longer barrels.

But aren't you in NJ or NY?

Oh, wait.. snap! That's you shooting the thompsons above?!

icon_gu_b_slayer[1].gif
 
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