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Gun Appreciation Thread - Page 176

post #2626 of 3148
^Approximately what would you consider a "tier 2" load for the .45 Colt to be ballistically? I know that some aficionados of the cartridge do posit a Tier 2 for New Frontiers and Smith 25s, but all the manuals I have jump from Peacemaker-level to Blackhawk level. I am surmising that starter-level loads for tier 3 guns should be considered top-end for Tier 2, but this is pure conjecture on my part. Since I like to baby my guns, all my .45 Colt handloading has been Tier 1. I think it was John Taffin who told me that a 25-5 could handle 300/1100 safely, but continuous use would accelerate wear and frame-stretching on the gun.
post #2627 of 3148
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLibourel View Post

^Approximately what would you consider a "tier 2" load for the .45 Colt to be ballistically? I know that some aficionados of the cartridge do posit a Tier 2 for New Frontiers and Smith 25s, but all the manuals I have jump from Peacemaker-level to Blackhawk level. I am surmising that starter-level loads for tier 3 guns should be considered top-end for Tier 2, but this is pure conjecture on my part. Since I like to baby my guns, all my .45 Colt handloading has been Tier 1. I think it was John Taffin who told me that a 25-5 could handle 300/1100 safely, but continuous use would accelerate wear and frame-stretching on the gun.

Tier 2 45 Colt loads run up to 20,000 psi. A max tier 1 load for the Colt would be about 10.5gr of HS 6 topped off with a 265gr LBT hardcast bullet with the wide cutting meplat. A max tier 2 load would be about 13.5gr of HS 6 with the same bullet. 1100 fps to 1125 fps can be expected from that max load. Approach the max with extreme caution. The pressure curve on HS 6 starts to really run up at around 13 gr. 15 gr is a max tier 3 load at about 31,000 psi. Needless to say shoot over a set of screens and if you hit 1100 fps with say 12.8gr of HS 6 call it good. After that you'll be in tier 3 territory for sure. Tier 3 stuff is just nuts Jan. Dumping 22 or 23 gr of H110 into a 45 Colt case and topping it off with a 325 or 335gr slug is freaky. Firing them is an experience and not so fun but neither is being eaten by a Rocky Mountain Grizzly.

My HS 6 info was acquired from Brian Pearce, LBT and John Linebaugh. The tier 3 info came from John Linebaugh and LBT.

Typical disclaimer, this info is for educational purposes only. If you choose to use this info for a handload you do so at your own risk.
post #2628 of 3148
^Isn't there also a Tier 4 for guns like Casulls and various custom five-shooters? I know Tier 3 is for Ruger Blackhawks and such, but the Casulls certainly can take much hotter loads. I don't think there is much difference in what you can achieve with a .45 Colt case in a Casull and with the longer .454 case.

I remember one time I was handloading a Keith-recommended load of 18.5 grains of 2400 for a test of a .45 Colt revolver. Something didn't seem quite right about the way the powder looked and was bulking up. Suddenly, I realized to my horror that I was loading Bullseye! That was the nearest I have ever come to blowing up a gun. It would have been spectacular...at least if I didn't lose a few fingers or get a chunk of steel lodged in my brain!

Back when I was doing lots of handloading for big-bore revolvers I never much cared for the extra-heavy-for-caliber bullets for the simple reason that they usually shot way above point of aim, even with the rear sight all the way down. Of course, if I had really wanted to, I could have had extra-high front sights installed, I suppose.
post #2629 of 3148
18.5gr of Bullseye! Jan, that would have been more like a small atom bomb going off! Geez. A buddy of mine double charged a 45 ACP round one time by mistake and didn't catch it. When he lit that round off all kinds of bad things happened. Nobody got hurt but pieces of that 1911 were never found.

I've heard about tier 4 and 5 loads for the round but have never seen any data for those levels anywhere. I'm sure when some of the guys were experimenting with taking things beyond Ruger level they had loads that could be considered tier 4 and 5. The only guys I can think of who would know of such a thing would be John Linebaugh, Dick Casull and maybe Elmer Keith. Tier 3 stuff is crazy enough. If I wanted the ultimate 45 I would just go out and get a 460 Smith and call it a day.

Yeah the heavy slugs can be a pain when trying to get a gun sighted in. I haven't had too much trouble with that so far with the 45 Colt. It was a problem with both the 357 and 44 Mag heavy loads I tried to cook up. That's why I ended up playing around with the Colt round.
post #2630 of 3148
Is Casull still with us? I note that in most web entries, including the Wikipedia bio, he is spoken of in the past tense, yet no date of death is given. Elmer really didn't have much use for any handgun cartridge more powerful than his baby the .44 Magnum. Actually, John Lachuk claims to have invented the .44 Magnum while still a youth using cut-down .405 Winchester brass in a Colt Single Action. I am not sure whether John is doing any more writing these days. If so, it would probably make him the longest running gun writer in history since he sold his first article to The American Rifleman back in 1945, when he was 18. I think Elmer wrote for about 55 or 56 years. I was glad I was able to work with him at the end of his career.

Of course, Casull created his .454 using .45 Colt cases. The elongated .454 brass came along when Freedom Arms more or less legtimized the cartridge. I know that some men like using .45 Colt brass for loads at this level as it makes using extra heavy bullets easier. You can use the crimp groove without the bullet sticking out the front of the Casull revolver's cylinder. The Freedom Arms people counseled against this practice because of chamber erosion and offered interchangeable cylinders in .45 Colt for their revolvers and may still do for all I know.
post #2631 of 3148
I believe Casull is still alive but is no longer part of Freedom Arms. I know FA is making a gun specifically chambered in 45 Colt. I'm positive that before they introduced the "new' model you could have them fit a 45 Colt cylinder to the original Casull gun. I handled a couple of FA guns in the past. They are exquisite SA revolvers that shoot like a dang rifle. Of course for the price I would expect nothing less. Linebaugh mentions something about fitting a gun with a 50,000 psi class 45 Colt cylinder on one of his conversions. That's definitely Casull chamber pressures and IMO would be the tier 5 stuff I've only heard about.

Personally I prefer to stay with tier 1 and 2 loads around here. Tier one stuff is just fun to shoot and as "weak" as some say it is they'll kill a deer no problem. Hell, the standard 45 Colt load had to kill horses. That was a military requirement for the gun/ammo combo in 1873. Stiff tier 2 loads might not go through a bison (it'll come close) but it will certainly drop deer, black bear, hogs and whatever else wanders around MO and the immediate surrounding area. Tier 3, like I said before is for out West.

I've always been interested in how these big bore calibers came to be and how they evolved into what we have today. I also find it rather interesting that the 45-70 has been worked up to a modern level as well. It's my understanding that in Africa a good old Marlin guide gun in 45-70 is fast becoming the choice of gun for a lot of the big game guides. They use either Garrett, BB loads or handload them hot with heavy hardcast bullets. These guys are reporting back that these loads are going through big stuff from front to back.. I used to think that more has to be better but that's been proven to be not so time and time again. A buddy of mine used to laugh at me when I sat around concocting my next super duper whiz bang load for a 357 or 44 mag. He used to load hot 44 specials with Keith hardcast slugs and went out and killed about everything that walked with his Colt SAA. I should have paid a little more attention to what he was doing about 35 years ago. LOL!
post #2632 of 3148
Did some shooting this weekend, first time in a few years, and I forgot what a blast it is to be out in the boonies and blasting away. I brought my two handguns, my G23 (mid sized frame Glock .40 caliber) and my Kahr 9mm (really a nice slim gun) and my friend brought two Rugers, a 10/22 and a Mini-14. Holy fuck! 50 round clip in his 10/22 and it was a blast. I want both but think I'll grab the 10/22 first. The basic model is just $200 or so and so many modifications you can do. I'll get a tough looking stock and a laser site for it and pretend I'm Rambo.
post #2633 of 3148
So this is happening:

0710e1ee-bde3-4ebb-8d4c-ba348df8984e_zpsbaea3ca1.jpg

$200 for the Ruger 10/22 basic carbine. We joined a nearby outdoor shooting range ($100 for both of us) and had a great time Friday morning shooting. Both staff and other shooters were super polite and friendly and we cannot wait to go back.

So I'm looking for a scope for this. I've gotten expert input and will probably pick up a Simmons. I'm trying to decide whether to leave the rest of it factory or pick up some kind of "tacticool" looking stock like the ATI with adjustable and foldable stock. Still up in the air on that.

Next year I'm planning to buy something bigger. Thinking Mini 14 or AR-15. I figure there are some folks here with opinions and experience. So Mini or AR, and if AR, which one and why? As always with me I'm a value shopper and do not plan to spend 2k or more on a complete package.
post #2634 of 3148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

So this is happening:

0710e1ee-bde3-4ebb-8d4c-ba348df8984e_zpsbaea3ca1.jpg

$200 for the Ruger 10/22 basic carbine. We joined a nearby outdoor shooting range ($100 for both of us) and had a great time Friday morning shooting. Both staff and other shooters were super polite and friendly and we cannot wait to go back.

So I'm looking for a scope for this. I've gotten expert input and will probably pick up a Simmons. I'm trying to decide whether to leave the rest of it factory or pick up some kind of "tacticool" looking stock like the ATI with adjustable and foldable stock. Still up in the air on that.

Next year I'm planning to buy something bigger. Thinking Mini 14 or AR-15. I figure there are some folks here with opinions and experience. So Mini or AR, and if AR, which one and why? As always with me I'm a value shopper and do not plan to spend 2k or more on a complete package.

I like the mini-14, my friend bought one and let me break it in with him. He just got the ranch model, but it was fun to shoot and dead on accurate.
post #2635 of 3148
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokencycle View Post


I like the mini-14, my friend bought one and let me break it in with him. He just got the ranch model, but it was fun to shoot and dead on accurate.

 

I heard within the last several years Ruger upgraded the machinery that they manufactured the mini 14 on. Previously they used the same machines to make them since the 1970s, and accuracy had become a major issue as tolerances suffered when the machines more out. I can tell you this, my mini 14, one of the newer models, gets sub MOA accuracy with an accu-strut added. It's great.

post #2636 of 3148

Btw, if it's a choice between mini and AR, it's AR all the way. Magazines are more plentiful, it generally has more accuracy potential, accessories are plentiful, and it is, of course, much more modular than the mini. Besides that, if you get a Colt, or the like, you are investing in a military grade machine. There is DEFINITELY something to be said for that.

post #2637 of 3148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caustic Man View Post

Btw, if it's a choice between mini and AR, it's AR all the way. Magazines are more plentiful, it generally has more accuracy potential, accessories are plentiful, and it is, of course, much more modular than the mini. Besides that, if you get a Colt, or the like, you are investing in a military grade machine. There is DEFINITELY something to be said for that.

Some of these are more important than the others to me. For me cost is probably paramount as a) I'm cheap and b) this is just a minor pastime. I'm never going to be a target shooter and if I can get 4" groupings at 100 yards I'll ecstatic. I understand some ARs are better than others and the AR is in general more expensive than the Mini?
post #2638 of 3148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

I understand some ARs are better than others and the AR is in general more expensive than the Mini?

 

This depends. When I bought my mini 14 back in 2008 it cost me about $750 in California. I don't know what it would be now but I assume it would be more. A Colt AR is around 1100.00 on Buds, but you can get other makers for considerably less. Just depends on what you want to do with it I guess. A mini is a fine trunk gun, or plinker. An AR is, generally, a high performance military style weapon.

post #2639 of 3148
If it's just for the range why not get a .22 version?
post #2640 of 3148
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayward View Post

If it's just for the range why not get a .22 version?

You mean, like this?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Piobaire View Post

So this is happening:

0710e1ee-bde3-4ebb-8d4c-ba348df8984e_zpsbaea3ca1.jpg

$200 for the Ruger 10/22 basic carbine.
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