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Gun Appreciation Thread - Page 166

post #2476 of 3062
So this question may have been asked and answered already, but I am looking for a SAO gun for carrying. I don't like double action - I am not as accurate as I'd like to be - and despite what people say about it being safer and easier because you can leave the safety off, that just isn't ever going to happen for me. I'd love to get your opinions.

I have tried a Colt 1911 in 9mm, a CZ 75 (9mm), and a Sig P238. Are there guns I'm missing that I should try out? I know the P938 and I can try some different 1911's.

Here are my basic requirements:
  1. I am open to caliber from .380 to .45 although I'm leaning toward smaller calibers for ammo cost reasons - I'd like to shoot at the range without spending an arm and a leg.
  2. I want a steel frame (I don't like plastic guns)
  3. Size is more important than weight. I have never carried before, and I won't do it that often seeing places like work ban guns.
  4. Ideally <$700
post #2477 of 3062
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokencycle View Post

So this question may have been asked and answered already, but I am looking for a SAO gun for carrying. I don't like double action - I am not as accurate as I'd like to be - and despite what people say about it being safer and easier because you can leave the safety off, that just isn't ever going to happen for me. I'd love to get your opinions.

I have tried a Colt 1911 in 9mm, a CZ 75 (9mm), and a Sig P238. Are there guns I'm missing that I should try out? I know the P938 and I can try some different 1911's.

Here are my basic requirements:
  1. I am open to caliber from .380 to .45 although I'm leaning toward smaller calibers for ammo cost reasons - I'd like to shoot at the range without spending an arm and a leg.
  2. I want a steel frame (I don't like plastic guns)
  3. Size is more important than weight. I have never carried before, and I won't do it that often seeing places like work ban guns.
  4. Ideally <$700

You do know that carrying a SAO auto is something that's considered by many to be in the experts realm only? The reason being that if you aren't well seasoned and practiced with a SAO pistol you might forget to engage the safety when holstering it or you'll fumble with the safety when the chips are down. I also notice a tendency that people will carry these without a round chambered which is just plain dumb and counterproductive in the real world of self defense. An alternate solution is a DA/SA auto along the lines of a Beretta Cheetah, 92FS or Walther PPK. They can be safely carried with the hammer down without the safety being on. After the first shot you have the SA trigger and all it's benefits. The less things you have to fiddle with the better when it hits the fan. You won't be thinking well and forget about fine motor skills either. Both go out the window when you are stressed to the max.
post #2478 of 3062
Para LDA instead if they still make it?
post #2479 of 3062
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crane's View Post

You do know that carrying a SAO auto is something that's considered by many to be in the experts realm only? The reason being that if you aren't well seasoned and practiced with a SAO pistol you might forget to engage the safety when holstering it or you'll fumble with the safety when the chips are down. I also notice a tendency that people will carry these without a round chambered which is just plain dumb and counterproductive in the real world of self defense. An alternate solution is a DA/SA auto along the lines of a Beretta Cheetah, 92FS or Walther PPK. They can be safely carried with the hammer down without the safety being on. After the first shot you have the SA trigger and all it's benefits. The less things you have to fiddle with the better when it hits the fan. You won't be thinking well and forget about fine motor skills either. Both go out the window when you are stressed to the max.

I'd feel safer carrying a gun where I have to flick the safety over carrying a gun with a round in the chamber and no safety. Flicking the safety doesn't seem much different than having to flick the safety on my M16 in my short time in the Army.

I don't like the DA pull. I've shot the PPK, which I hate, because it jammed on me twice my first time shooting it, and that jam is near impossible to clear.

I do like the Beretta 92FS. My buddy has the full-size and the compact, but I don't find myself shooting it in DA. I always just pull the hammer back.

Ultimately, it comes down to this: I won't carry a DA gun with a round in the chamber and no safety engaged. That doesn't make me feel safe or comfortable.
post #2480 of 3062
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokencycle View Post

I'd feel safer carrying a gun where I have to flick the safety over carrying a gun with a round in the chamber and no safety. Flicking the safety doesn't seem much different than having to flick the safety on my M16 in my short time in the Army.

I don't like the DA pull. I've shot the PPK, which I hate, because it jammed on me twice my first time shooting it, and that jam is near impossible to clear.

I do like the Beretta 92FS. My buddy has the full-size and the compact, but I don't find myself shooting it in DA. I always just pull the hammer back.

Ultimately, it comes down to this: I won't carry a DA gun with a round in the chamber and no safety engaged. That doesn't make me feel safe or comfortable.

Keep in mind this is no different than carrying a revolver. The long trigger pull is the safety. The choice is obviously up to you but once again a SAO automatic is the gun you're most likely going to experience an AD with. For what it's worth my fastest first shots have always been done with a DA type of trigger.
post #2481 of 3062
If you're not comfortable with a modern DA auto then you have a training issue.
post #2482 of 3062
Quote:
Originally Posted by Crane's View Post

Keep in mind this is no different than carrying a revolver. The long trigger pull is the safety. The choice is obviously up to you but once again a SAO automatic is the gun you're most likely going to experience an AD with. For what it's worth my fastest first shots have always been done with a DA type of trigger.

I understand it is the same as a revolver. This is why I have basically disregarded the revolver too because otherwise I like the idea: no jams, and if it misfires just go again.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayward View Post

If you're not comfortable with a modern DA auto then you have a training issue.

I'm not comfortable with the idea of not having a safety that I'm just relying on a long trigger pull to prevent an accidental discharge for a variety of reasons.


There are a number of different people who prefer SAO; in fact, there are numerous forums dedicated to 1911's alone. We can debate the merits of DA/SA vs SAO, but I was just looking for opinions on SAO guns I may have not considered.

I'd join a 1911 forum, but based on reading some threads on them, they degenerate into "buy a $1000 1911, then customize x, y, and z" much the way threads in MC about "I'm looking for an interview suit" ultimately have someone that recommending bespoke or m2m.
post #2483 of 3062
Springfield GI 1911
post #2484 of 3062
As long as you're trained in keeping your trigger finger on the index point during your draw, up until your support hand meets and securely grasps your strong hand when the muzzle is toward the target, there shouldn't be any issues. You shouldn't be on the trigger until that point in the draw, barring the need to shoot at contact range. Most ADs occurs due to untrained persons having their finger on the trigger during initial stage of draw.

It should be noted that modern DAO pistols do in fact have safeties. They're just internal safeties and/or on the trigger itself. the sear won't be engaged until the trigger is all the way back - something that won't happen unless something gets into the trigger guard. A decent holster will cover the trigger guard. A conventional DA pull weight is around 12 lbs; Glocks or similar are around 6 and have the additional trigger safety; by comparison a (good) 1911 trigger pull is around 2-4 lbs.

Also, cocking the hammer during draw is not a great idea. Most DA/SA autos have safeties that drop the hammer. Since the US adopted the M9 I dunno if Beretta even makes a non-hammer drop 92 anymore. Afaik only CZ75 based DAs and the HK USP variant 1 can do cocked and locked.

Now, if you already have the competent muscle memory to hit the thumb safety during draw, that's great, but you still shouldn't be on the trigger until your support hand meets the gun and the muzzle is about to be on target. So it ends up just being an extra step.

Try both systems and see what you're more comfortable with, I guess. Keep in mind you'll be under stress and that means the less fine motor movements the better. Which is why everyone used Glocks or some such now.

As far as SAO autos are concerned - apart from the 1911 there's the Browning High Power, and Springfield now makes a 1911 scaled down for the 9mm. Maybe you can find a Star BM or PD in good shape (forget any more recent Stars like the Firestar). There are less orthodox choices, HK P9 or P7 come to mind, but their manual of arms differ from anything else and there's limited if any maintenance support for them.

If you're starting from scratch, you might as well train as if your starting from scratch, take a good course and use a contemporary design pistol. If you were comfortable with the bulk of a Beretta 92 grip a Glock should be fine. If not, M&P. lots of folks love the M&P.
post #2485 of 3062
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayward View Post

As long as you're trained in keeping your trigger finger on the index point during your draw, up until your support hand meets and securely grasps your strong hand when the muzzle is toward the target, there shouldn't be any issues. You shouldn't be on the trigger until that point in the draw, barring the need to shoot at contact range. Most ADs occurs due to untrained persons having their finger on the trigger during initial stage of draw.

It should be noted that modern DAO pistols do in fact have safeties. They're just internal safeties and/or on the trigger itself. the sear won't be engaged until the trigger is all the way back - something that won't happen unless something gets into the trigger guard. A decent holster will cover the trigger guard. A conventional DA pull weight is around 12 lbs; Glocks or similar are around 6 and have the additional trigger safety; by comparison a (good) 1911 trigger pull is around 2-4 lbs.

Also, cocking the hammer during draw is not a great idea. Most DA/SA autos have safeties that drop the hammer. Since the US adopted the M9 I dunno if Beretta even makes a non-hammer drop 92 anymore. Afaik only CZ75 based DAs and the HK USP variant 1 can do cocked and locked.

Now, if you already have the competent muscle memory to hit the thumb safety during draw, that's great, but you still shouldn't be on the trigger until your support hand meets the gun and the muzzle is about to be on target. So it ends up just being an extra step.

Try both systems and see what you're more comfortable with, I guess. Keep in mind you'll be under stress and that means the less fine motor movements the better. Which is why everyone used Glocks or some such now.

As far as SAO autos are concerned - apart from the 1911 there's the Browning High Power, and Springfield now makes a 1911 scaled down for the 9mm. Maybe you can find a Star BM or PD in good shape (forget any more recent Stars like the Firestar). There are less orthodox choices, HK P9 or P7 come to mind, but their manual of arms differ from anything else and there's limited if any maintenance support for them.

If you're starting from scratch, you might as well train as if your starting from scratch, take a good course and use a contemporary design pistol. If you were comfortable with the bulk of a Beretta 92 grip a Glock should be fine. If not, M&P. lots of folks love the M&P.

Bingo. This is actually one of the rules of safe gun handling. Keep your finger (or anything else) off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.

To tell you the truth trigger type means very little to me unless I'm shooting bulls eye or long range hunting with a handgun. Then I want a SA trigger. On the street I don't worry about it. What's more important to me is if it has tritium sights.
post #2486 of 3062
Ameriglo names a solid night sight. Good value for the $$$$.
post #2487 of 3062
Bought my first firearm today; a Remington 870 Express Tactical. I want a flashlight for it and a safe to put it in now.

Thinking about an AR-15, not so much because I really want or need one, but because MD is banning them as of October 1. I was looking at a Stag and a Windham. Still not really convinced I want to do it, but I guess I have a rebel streak in me.
post #2488 of 3062
I keep thinking about getting one of those 80% plastic receivers and making a 22 out of it. Already have an M1 carbine, I don't think I really have a need for a full caliber AR15.
post #2489 of 3062
I'm picking up one of those, New Frontier Armory, this week with the same intention but I'll put a 5.56 upper and an adaptor kit that way if I want it I can have a full size AR15.

Also ordered a fully assembled metal mil-spec lower from Stag Arms with the idea of putting a big caliber upper, .50 Beowulf vs .458 SOCOM vs 6.8 Special.
post #2490 of 3062
Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas View Post

Bought my first firearm today; a Remington 870 Express Tactical. I want a flashlight for it and a safe to put it in now.

Thinking about an AR-15, not so much because I really want or need one, but because MD is banning them as of October 1. I was looking at a Stag and a Windham. Still not really convinced I want to do it, but I guess I have a rebel streak in me.

dude, I was there a couple months ago. For your first AR 15 go ahead and get a Colt 6920, that's what I did and I'm happy about it. Good quality basic stuff, you can upgrade later. Bolt carrier group is also full auto, not that it makes any practical difference but who knows... ha

I had the same Remington 870. Solid gun, no frills. Get a Limbsaver recoil pad or you're gonna b sore.

I got a rifle biometric safe from Barska. I guess quality is ok, size smallish but ok for the closet and it'll fit an AR, a 12 ga shotgun and a pistol easy... although the way things are going I'll need a larger safe soon...
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