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Goodyear vs. blake -- visible differences? - Page 2

post #16 of 36
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I was happy to review the latest JM Weston production information this week where they insisted that only where the feather is cut directly from the insole is it proper to use the term 'Goodyear Welt' construction
It's interesting that Weston would make such a big deal of the difference - they seem to use what I believe is called a 'cut and turned' feather, where a cut is made into the edge of the insole, the resulting flap is turned up 90 degrees and held in place by a glued on linen backing. It's not all that much different than the simpler glued-on feather that EG etc use. I prefer the sturdiness of a welted sole (in most cases I can tell a Blake stitched shoe just by tapping on the sole, it has a different feel,) but there are still PLENTY of Blake stitched shoes that I would be happy to wear, and a few that I do wear.
post #17 of 36
A welted shoe feels completely different [to wear] than a blake stitched sole. 2 different beasts entirely. What you say about good year welts has my eyes popping out and me chocking on my tougne; l am in a pink fit right now because of you guys. Be-spoke = good year welted RTW(most) = e.g=welted shoes. Oh no, tell me it ain't true.
post #18 of 36
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The drawing is less pathetic than the quality of the information.
I second that accuse. Jon.
post #19 of 36
RIDER: It was my understanding that Goodyear construction refers not to the specific welting method, but rather to the *mechanization* of the old welting process, i.e., that the process formerly done by hand (a-la Vass, etc.) could now be done using a specific machine. Therefore, is it not true that, strictly speaking, a hand-welted shoe is not technically a "Goodyear welted" shoe? And if so, is the distinction between carved and glued insole still relevant, seeing as in both cases the same Goodyear-style machine (I assume) is being used?
post #20 of 36
Lomezz - logically speaking, you are correct. Really, the Goodyear machine is just a curved needle stitcher. In the late 1800's, the MacKay stitcher (now called Blake) greatly increased production - but re-soleing was difficult as repair shops were either slow to adapt, or could not afford the new machines. Charles Goodyear invented the curved needle stitcher that allowed the factories still doing 'old-fashioned' work to not only compete production wise, but market the shoes as easily repairable by the shops. The production was still cut and folded walls from the insole, and the shoes continued to be top notch. Thru time, someone came up with the idea of replacing this construction with 'gemming' - a glued on feather. A dedicated machine does this. Also, cheaper, thinner insoles became the norm as you didn't have to cut a wall out of them any longer. This was one of many cuts in quality that has continued to this day in the industry. So, specifically speaking, Goodyear Welting has little to do with the insole and more to do with production; however, traditionalists argue that the 'marketers' took advantage of the new technology to cheapen the product in ways a customer might never see, and therefore increase profit margins. This was never the intent. So now, the term "Goodyear Welting" has evolved to include the type of insole used to denote a certain quality and time commitment in the production of a shoe. At least to a small, and shrinking, group of industry types.
post #21 of 36
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Also, cheaper, thinner insoles became the norm as you didn't have to cut a wall out of them any longer. This was one of many cuts in quality that has continued to this day in the industry.
Why do you consider a thinner insole to be a disadvantage? Or is it just that the quality of the leather is lower. I ask because Vass scrapes the insoles down so that they are quite thin - to me this is superior as it allows the footbed to adjust to the foot much more easily.
post #22 of 36
Thanks, RIDER. very informative, as always.
post #23 of 36
Sorry for unearthing this thread, but I guess that's better than starting a new one where everything would have to be repeated.
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In the late 1800's, the MacKay stitcher (now called Blake) greatly increased production - but re-soleing was difficult as repair shops were either slow to adapt, or could not afford the new machines. Charles Goodyear invented the curved needle stitcher that allowed the factories still doing 'old-fashioned' work to not only compete production wise, but market the shoes as easily repairable by the shops.
Is this still true today? Is Blake still more difficult/expensive to resole? Mathieu
post #24 of 36
This thread gets down to the nitty-gritty of what I am trying to learn about shoe construction. The big take-away for me is that unless one goes bespoke, goodyear welting--superior method of shoe construction--is unavailable in RTW, outside of Vass and Weston. Say it isn't so. Does anyone have a list of manufacturers that use goodyear welting in their RTW line?
post #25 of 36
other questions: why is a one-piece sole better than glued-on feather? why is welted better than Blake? Mathieu PS: Could A Harris or another avatar of the shoe god write a definitive post on shoe construction: characteristics, advantages, drawbacks, etc. of goodyear welting, glued-on-feather welting, Blake, rapid-Blake, etc.? Please
post #26 of 36
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Does anyone have a list of manufacturers that use goodyear welting in their RTW line?
Green, C&J, Church's, Lobb, & Grenson all Goodyear welt at least their top lines of RTW shoes. Green welts them all (except the slippers).
post #27 of 36
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(johnapril @ April 29 2005,09:29) Does anyone have a list of manufacturers that use goodyear welting in their RTW line?
Green, C&J, Church's, Lobb, & Grenson all Goodyear welt at least their top lines of RTW shoes.  Green welts them all (except the slippers).
Thanks, Manton.
post #28 of 36
Hah. I finally caught Manton:
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Quote (johnapril @ April 29 2005,09:29) Does anyone have a list of manufacturers that use goodyear welting in their RTW line? Green, C&J, Church's, Lobb, & Grenson all Goodyear welt at least their top lines of RTW shoes. Green welts them all (except the slippers).
Green does NOT welt all of their shoes. Sak's offers a few pairs of loafers that are made in Italy--blake constructed for sure. The same goes for JL Paris who frequently has one or two "seasonal" shoes that are subcontracted to an Italian manufacturer. This is a minor detail, just thought I would share.
post #29 of 36
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Hah.  I finally caught Manton: Green does NOT welt all of their shoes.  Sak's offers a few pairs of loafers that are made in Italy--blake constructed for sure.  
Dude, the only place I've ever seen those "Made for Edward Green" shoes is in Saks NYC -- I don't even think they sell them in Burlington Arcade. They might be some special thing done at Saks' request.
post #30 of 36
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Green does NOT welt all of their shoes.  Sak's offers a few pairs of loafers that are made in Italy--blake constructed for sure.
I did not know that.  Certainly, all the English shoes are welted.  Except, again, the slippers.   And maybe the pumps.
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The same goes for JL Paris who frequently has one or two "seasonal" shoes that are subcontracted to an Italian manufacturer.
This I knew, which is why I specified their "top lines."  All the Northampton-made shoes are welted, I think.
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