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High quality artificial/faux leather shoes? - Page 3

post #31 of 48
Thread Starter 
@DWFII Yes we are the problem. If we just treated the animals better then I believe 90% of the vegans wouldn't be vegans in the first place. It takes a lot of "la-la-la i don't want to see and hear" to not act upon seeing any of the thousands of videos of factory farms on youtube.

@DWFII - don't you think cows deserves the right to live outdoor on grass fields and to be slaughtered in the least painful way?

Regarding sheeps getting a haircut, watch this https://youtu.be/N7nKvgaMEaU
post #32 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by gs77 View Post

And, aside from perto-chemical industry, how do you produce other natural materials like cotton canvas or linen? Maybe by farming? And the processing of cotton and linen to get to usefull cloth? And what about GMO cotton?

And the original poster who works as a sales manager for financial services clients. How about telling your client to make some moral choices to begin with?

I mean, you can't have it both ways really. Either you are pillar of morality or you are not.

I'd rather wear dead-cow-made shoes (that last lifetime) and sheep-haircut-made suit then some plastic/cotton crap that I throw away every two years.
I mean do you think sheep minds getting a nice haircut? I think these animals can live perfectly meaningful life. I don't use word happy, as I do not know what it means, even in humans. We don't live to be happy, but to be useful.

+1

When it comes to ethics and morality none of us get to choose which is "more ethical" or "more moral." Moral relativism is simply self-justification.
post #33 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomford View Post

@DWFII Yes we are the problem. If we just treated the animals better then I believe 90% of the vegans wouldn't be vegans in the first place. It takes a lot of "la-la-la i don't want to see and hear" to not act upon seeing any of the thousands of videos of factory farms on youtube.

@DWFII - don't you think cows deserves the right to live outdoor on grass fields and to be slaughtered in the least painful way?

I've lived on farms. I've been in contact with people who take animal husbandry very seriously . I've hunted and killed to feed myself and my family. I've cut the throats and gutted animals I've raised. I've watched the life go out of their eyes.

Most ranchers, most farmers, most hunters, are far more conscious of the import of what it means to the animal than people watching YouTube videos and who have the temerity to eat meat without ever actually participating in the process that ends up filling their bellies.

That and painting people, who do their best to feed and clothe people who can't, or won't, do it for themselves, even once in their lives, with a broad and condemnatory brush are the real abuses, the real arrogance that makes it all so dissonant.

Bottom line is that I don't care if a person chooses to be a vegan or a meat eater--it's a little like sexual practices--the only way it becomes a problem is if we take it out into the streets. What bothers me is that people want to adopt a superior moral stance...want to "cop a tude"...with people who don't agree with them yet don't want to face the consequences or the implications or even pay the righteous (it is righteous isn't it?) price for their choices and their cheaply bought feelings of superiority.

I'll tell you a little story (just because I'm old and that's what old men do)...I lived next to a family who were "proud" vegans many years ago (before it was popular to be a vegan). One day the man ran over a kitten as he was backing out of his driveway. He crushed the animal's hindquarters and broke its spine. The kitten was in extreme pain and crying piteously. The man in question...the one responsible for the pain...couldn't end the animal's misery. Couldn't , either because of moral weakness or perhaps even some sort of distorted "principle"...couldn't kill the kitten. He came to me--the auld crabbit and stuck in the mud conservative...to do the job for him.

Frankly, to this day...fifty years later...I still choke up with the memory. I like cat and kittens. I value all life.

--
Edited by DWFII - 12/11/15 at 10:45am
post #34 of 48

When I talked about pillar of morality what I meant was really the only way to do it is go to the distant monastery (in my case some Eastern Orthodox one :-) ), grow a beard and sleep on straw. That is the only way not to cause any suffering or harm to any human, animal or nature. Apart from that, life is suffering, and deal with it by causing as little suffering as possible by having meaningful interests in life, and not overeating, overspending etc. Budism is associated with this thinking, but even Greek and Roman stoics new this very well, and it made it into all the major religions.

 

To the particular theme, the problem is we are spending too much. Western man, 100 years ago, had maybe 4-5 pair of shoes IN HIS LIFETIME, and 4-5 suits IN HIS LIFETIME (maybe even much less). They were made by his fellow humans who didn't need to produce 1000s of pairs of shoes a day in order to survive. We also ate less meat, and less processed meat. When I walk into restaurants today, I am disgusted at the size of a stake. Who would want to eat all that? No one seams to be preparing own food anymore... And so on.

 

I had grandparents on farm with whom I spent summers with. very small farm, up to 10 milking cows, 100 sheep, some pigs and chicken. My grandpa used to slaughter animals himself for food, what's left was sold as a live stock. My grandma used to "haircut" sheep. I never thought of turning vegan or anything, on contrary, but it gave me great appreciation for nature. 

 

The videos of those poor sheep, or videos of cow farming.. It is heartbreaking but is good for everyone to educate him self, @tomford , but the point is - there is middle ground here:

- Know where your food and other goods come from,

- Do not consume more then you need,

- Buy quality that will last, preferably from craftsmen that put their on hands to work.

post #35 of 48
Thread Starter 
@DWFII
"Most ranchers, most farmers, most hunters, are far more conscious of the import of what it means to the animal than people watching YouTube videos".

I've taken part in deer hunting and one of my best friends has a small scale pig farm. My experience is that small scale farmers care more about animals than people in general. I am not critisizing them, I am criticizing the factory farms where animals suffer greatly. Youtube is for 99% the only chance to get a glimpse of what goes on behind the lockes doors of a factory farm. Don't just throw away that source of information.

"Bottom line is that I don't care if a person chooses to be a vegan or a meat eater--it's a little like sexual practices--the only way it becomes a problem is if we take it out into the streets. What bothers me is that people want to adopt a superior moral stance."

If you include pedophilia in "sexual practises" I agree with you. Because meat eating (from factory farms) is taking advantage of someone who is weaker, can't speak for themselves and has to suffer greatly for the sake of your short pleasure.

Do you consider people who criticise pedophiles as the abusers, the real arrogance?

Or, have you simply excluded other sentient beings on the planet from your empathy and moral sense?
post #36 of 48

I have the high quality leather shoes is perfect to me.

post #37 of 48

I don't think any people have entirely consistent ethical systems.  Some things feel right to us and others don't feel right to us.  If we try to be overly rational and consistent, I think we get some unsatisfactory results.  Ethics have to be on a case-by-case basis to accommodate all the complexity of the world.  One thought exercise I have heard in various forms is as follows:  You are standing on a bridge watching a streetcar racing at great speed toward a crowd of people who will surely be killed if nothing is done.  Your only option for stopping the streetcar is to grab the baby out of the arms of the woman next to you and throw it (to its death) at some lever to switch the streetcar on to another track.  You can't throw the mother that far; you can't jump and hit the lever.  There is nothing else close enough at hand and of the right size for the job.  Do you feel good using the baby to save 10, 20, or more lives?

 

Some people may just feel wrong about wearing leather products, even if they are doing other things are ultimately more harmful to animals.  Sometimes it has to do with how directly they are linked to something.  The animals suffering due to the petroleum industry may just feel more removed than the ones whose former skins are on their feet.

 

The inconsistency in people's ethical systems (mine included, of course) are just one of the many reasons why one should try to avoid judging others or feeling righteous above others.  However, this is not to say that we shouldn't do whatever it takes to stop people who are directly and obviously hurting us or other people.  Whether we judge pedophiles or not, we certainly need to make sure we do what it takes to stop them from continuing to hurt children.

 

Do I care more about harm to people than to animals?  YES.  I am a person, I care more about people.  It's a bias.  I am happy with it.  That said, I ALSO CARE A LOT about the welfare and suffering of animals.  I think it's okay to kill and eat them, generally, but one should do it in as HUMANE a way as reasonably possible.  Furthermore, though I don't actually hunt, I feel that all people who eat meat should theoretically be willing to slaughter any of the animals they are going to consume.  If you eat cows, you can't get away with just being willing to kill a fish or a chicken.  In practice, I just don't have any convenient opportunity for this, myself, but I swear I would do it.

 

I also want to say something regarding the story of the vegan who wouldn't kill the kitten he left suffering.  Although I make a difference in my ethical system between people and animals, I do find it interesting what we consider a kindness for a beloved pet that is clearly suffering and near death, versus a beloved relative in a similar circumstance.

 

Edit: Ignore the following, as I didn't see the link in a previous post that already mentioned it:

 

****** Another option for ethically-sourced material to make shoes would be to pay people to let you use their hides after they died.  As long as they consented to the

****** transaction without compulsion, what would be the problem? :-)

 

Regards,

Jon


Edited by Whirling - 12/11/15 at 11:39pm
post #38 of 48
Sounds like nobody really has an answer, right?
post #39 of 48
Thread Starter 
Thank you Whirling for your wise and well thought arguments.
post #40 of 48

Here's a smart TED Talk about why we think the way we do... https://youtu.be/o0VrZPBskpg

 


 

post #41 of 48
Someone mentioned making shoes out of dead man's skin. As I already signed up for donation of my spare parts, in case something happens (I guess death has to happen), I do not mind some fine shoe maker turn my skin into shoes. But please, let them be hand crafted!

I hear our South Slavic full grain skin is good and thick, especially for outsoles and especially if taken from the cheeks :-)
post #42 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomford View Post

@DWFII
Do you consider people who criticise pedophiles as the abusers, the real arrogance?

I consider people who assume unto themselves an unsubstantiated moral superiority which they are invariably eager to bludgeon others with to be abuser and arrogant. Yes.

It's worth noting that, for years and years here, I have railed against the "factory mentality." Even in this thread. But that's not the issue here and it's a red herring to try make it so.

I have no doubt that there are instances of commercial farming abuses and indifferent husbandry ...all, again stemming from the factory mentality. But what many do, on Youtube and here in this thread, is condemn one thing because of malpractices in another thing. Leather use and meat eating are a problem in the face of such excesses, yes. But there is no one-to-one equivalence and those who try to draw an equivalence are distorting truth for their own self-congratulatory reasons.
Quote:
Or, have you simply excluded other sentient beings on the planet from your empathy and moral sense?

If they cannot exercise empathy and moral sense then why do they deserve it? If their definitions of empathy and moral sense are limited to those issues and those "facts" that reinforce their own self-absorbed view of the world and assuage their consciences, why should they be taken seriously?

You only have to consider the conundrum of environmental degradation from the manufacture of unnatural substitutes for products that when created responsibly, do not...and for millennia, have not...caused any substantive or significant environmental degradation. Or the issue of the unwillingness...perhaps even inability...to "man up"--muster the courage and moral fiber--and put an animal out of its misery, when you yourself are the cause of that misery. Or...just a thought...the issue of why the same level of "compassion" (or is it revulsion?) is not extended to our own species and our own progeny when it comes to abortion?

Is it a matter of "convenience" or hypocrisy or simply solipsism? Or perhaps some deeply rooted and unacknowledged misanthropy?

Whatever, to raise these issues on a forum that embraces leather and leather shoes and Traditional methods of making, seems wildly self-destructive at best. If you want "safe spaces" for a particularly iconoclastic POV, deliberately seeking out those who disagree with you is like a moth flying into the flame. IRL, there are no "safe spaces"...short of hypocrisy and anti-democratic autocracies.

edited for punctuation and clarity
Edited by DWFII - 12/12/15 at 9:48am
post #43 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by gs77 View Post

Someone mentioned making shoes out of dead man's skin

Bogus.
post #44 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by tomford View Post
 

I have been a vegetarian for 1,5 years now and have recently started to think about making more vegan choices in clothing, such as leather shoes.

 

I am a huge fan of high quality, classic leather shoes like Vass, Crockett and Jones etc. and I wear a suit almost everyday, it would be a shame to spoil my appearance with cheap looking shoes. I haven´t yet found any faux leather shoes in the  classic gentleman style.

 

Is there anyone who have any experience of high quality artificial/faux leather in this forum? Anyone knows anything about the fabric "Lorica" ?

 

Looking back at the original post, I really don't see anything that makes me feel tomford was trying to pick any fights.  He stated his preferences and asked a straightforward question.  He didn't criticize anybody for making, buying, or wearing leather products.  He didn't post his question in a forum specifically dedicated to leather products; he posted it in a forum dedicated to style and fashion.  He even stated he was a "huge fan of high quality, classic leather shoes."  He doesn't sound like he is even remotely implying a negative judgment of people who enjoy leather products.

 

The fact that some vegans and vegetarians express tremendous criticism of the choices other people make, doesn't mean that the original post contains any of that.  The original post doesn't look like somebody trying to proselytize for veganism or the PETA cause.  What member of PETA is going to state he is a "huge fan" of products made from parts of animals?

 

If this were a forum dedicated to fine dining, would we criticize a Jew or a Muslim for asking about non-pork recipes based on his faith?  Now, if a Jew or Muslim asked that on a forum dedicated to pork products, that would be another matter.

 

I think it is reasonable on a forum like this to broaden the discussion to how different products actually affect animal welfare.  It is reasonable to tell him you don't think there is any such thing as "high quality/faux leather" footwear.  I don't think it's especially decent to attack him, as he was, for his initial post.  To quote a classic of 1980's cinema, tomford wasn't the one who "drew first blood."

 

I am glad some people provided him with some credible, if not wonderful, possibilities.

 

I don't feel the field of ethics is fundamentally a matter of reason, but rather a matter of rationalizations for feelings and opinions people have.  Nobody wins ethical arguments or debates.  The debate on pro-life versus pro-choice doesn't seem to go anywhere.  The debate between Darwinism and Creationism isn't going anywhere, either.  If people share some values, discussion and sharing of perspectives can be worthwhile.  However, there isn't any gain to be had from debating ethics with people who have decidedly different values.  I have nothing to say to members of ISIS.  I just want them dead.

 

I eat red meat and wear leather products.  I am happy to have people raise cattle and/or hunt game responsibly.  I have enjoyed elk meat that was obtained by a hunter in my extended family.  As I said in a previous post, people who use or consume animal products should be willing to "own" the act of killing these animals.  Though it is obviously a vague position, easily-avoidable abuse of animals should be avoided.

 

With regard to faux leather footwear, I don't plan to be buying any in the near future.  I also don't think high-end faux leather footwear is any threat to traditional leather footwear.  The threat to traditional leather footwear comes from cheap leather footwear and cheap footwear, in general.  While some vegans may not want to wear footwear that even remotely resembles leather, the original post apparently doesn't feel that way.  There is nothing offensive to me in a man wanting nice-looking faux leather footwear.  If it troubles you greatly, I suggest you consider dedicating more of your time to combating violent crime, ISIS, or the destruction of the environment, for example.  That is just my opinion.

 

It is also my opinion, as a newbie here, that we should all make greater efforts to treat one another with respect and tolerance.  Hatred isn't stylish.

 

Regards,

Jon

post #45 of 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whirling View Post

...

I don't know where you think I was attacking any one specific individual. I don't think I have used the word "you" in any directed, non-generic, ad hominem way in this whole discussion...to this point.

I did bristle a little at his
Quote:
"Or, have you simply excluded other sentient beings on the planet from your empathy and moral sense?"

But all of my comments were generalized in nature, respectful, and "to the idea" rather than "to the man" (which is what that quoted remark is, IMO).

So if PETA fans are not posting here on this forum to criticize...even by implication....what in the world are they posting here for? Esp. once they have had basic answers given to their question such as was given in posts #6, #11, #12, #13, and #14. What is the expectation? Let's get real here. Why pursue it? Why pursue it in an arena where there is likely little or no significant knowledge of, much less interest in, faux leather shoes? Again, it doesn't really square with reality.

As far as me "combating violent crime" etc., I do my bit. Just not out in the streets or in places where the most likely outcome...surprise, surprise...is gonna be pushback...and, of course, attention.

If that troubles you, maybe you should try for camp counselor. IMO...respectfully.

--
Edited by DWFII - 12/12/15 at 12:10pm
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