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Shoemaking Techniques and Traditions--"...these foolish things..." - Page 63

post #931 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

If a customer requests us to do something that we think is detrimental to a shoe we refuse to do it even if they insist. Rather we suggest that they find someone that will.
They're plenty out there looking to make a buck anyway they can.
I guess there are different levels of integrity. That's just my version.

Between Crockett & Jones and J.M. Weston we average approx. 50 pair of MTP's per month. Have been for years.....
For them to do this many knowing such a service will damage their customers shoes simply defy's any logical persons thinking.
No speculation here, just facts.

Those are Goodyear welted construction. As DFW said the worst damage that can be cause by metal toe plate would be the gemming.

According to DWF, it is handwelting construction where the potential damage may arise by mounting metal toe plates.
Edited by vmss - 3/18/16 at 1:25pm
post #932 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by vmss View Post

Those are Goodyear welted and as DFW said the worst damage that can be cause by metal toe plate would be the gemming.

It is handwelting construction were the potential damage can be cause by metal toe plate according to DWF.

That's not what he said......
post #933 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

If a customer requests us to do something that we think is detrimental to a shoe we refuse to do it even if they insist. Rather we suggest that they find someone that will.
They're plenty out there looking to make a buck anyway they can.
I guess there are different levels of integrity. That's just my version.

Between Crockett & Jones and J.M. Weston we average approx. 50 pair of MTP's per month. Have been for years.....
For them to do this many knowing such a service will damage their customers shoes simply defy's any logical persons thinking.
No speculation here, just facts.

So tell me what's the level of Enzo Bonafe's integrity in your world? (I won't ask what you think mine is because that's apparent--the only reason you post to these threads is to question it.)

But, even more importantly tell me, tell us, what the level of integrity...or maybe just the level of logic, experience, or "facts"...is for someone who will offer to stretch a customer's shoe lengthwise without telling him that it will permanently distort and probably damage the heel stiffener and toe stiffener? And you don't, do you?...you didn't the last time we talked about this.

The correct answer is none.

Do you think the insole will stretch? Show me one that does...even paperboard...without damage. Do you think the heel stiffeners are on roller blades? It's like repeatedly running a car into brick walls...forward and backward--the road will not get longer and the walls aren't going to move. Those are the unassailable facts.

But I take it back...it's not a lack of integrity, it's ignorance. Willful ignorance...founded on a profound lack of experience. Someone sold you a machine that they said could stretch shoes lengthwise. and you believed them. No mental energy needed. What they really sold you was a load of manure and you bought it....and thought you were getting a wheelbarrow full of golden coins.

There is nothing anyone could say...and especially not any shoemaker who doesn't echo what you want to believe--not me, not Bonafe, not even mac...that will induce even a smidgeon of doubt in your mind. You've read all the literature that the jobbers send you and it makes a profit, so....

Don't worry. Be happy.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

That's not what he said......

Actually it is...you just have a reading and comprehension deficiency--post #890:
Quote:
If the shoes are GY it may not be all that much of a problem--the screws enter and chew up the gemming and not the insole.

But on a handwelted shoe it is a needlessly destructive process...in my professional opinion.

Don't worry. Be happy.

edited for punctuation and clarity
Edited by DWFII - 3/18/16 at 5:18pm
post #934 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post




BS! Sounds like whistling past the graveyard to me. Fumbling babbling rationales deployed in a hurry.
It just tells me that somebody with experience...real experience, not just la-la-land, dreamworld fantasies, has had enough feedback and taken sufficient time with an open enough mind, to really think about it. And that they too, along with Bonafe...who is evidently not top notch at least not according to you and Nick (and of course, both of you have been making that same point about me all along)...have begun to question the wisdom of what is fundamentally a destructive process.

 

I don't recall you harping about how great a shoe Bonafe/Vass are making, yet at the same time you openly praised and admired works by Delos, G&G, etc.  Maybe somewhere in your mind you do not consider Vass/Bonafe top notch either.

 

They make fine shoes in my not-a-shoemaker's humble opinion, and rightfully priced for the quality they provide.

 

In the meanwhile there are top notch shoemakers adding metal toe plates still and at least one other shoemaker in this thread doesn't share your concern.

post #935 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


Oh and BTW, I will put metal toe plates on (reluctantly), as well...just as I'll put Topy on...if the customer insists.

But I'll also make a point of telling the customer all the things I tell people here...and for the self-same reason--it's the right, the ethical, thing to do.

That said, I admire...even if no one else does...Bonafe's integrity in refusing to undermine or compromise his work.

edited for punctuation and clarity

 

For your shoe repair business or your bespoke shoe work? 

 

Have you ever refused bespoke work when customers insist on installing English toe plates?

post #936 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

I don't recall you harping about how great a shoe Bonafe/Vass are making, yet at the same time you openly praised and admired works by Delos, G&G, etc.  Maybe somewhere in your mind you do not consider Vass/Bonafe top notch either.

They make fine shoes in my not-a-shoemaker's humble opinion, and rightfully priced for the quality they provide.

And let it be noted that your 'humble opinion" is just that--based on visits to factories and what you read on the Internet. Wowza!!

Fact is I don't ordinarily comment...one way or the other...on a maker's (or manufacturer's) work esp. if they are not here to defend themselves or to respond. I talk about techniques...exclusively enough to call it a personal signature.

Quote:
In the meanwhile there are top notch shoemakers adding metal toe plates still and at least one other shoemaker in this thread doesn't share your concern.

If you're referring to mac...So what? I don't share his diffidence. I have a foundation and insights and understandings that legitimize my disagreement.

How about you?

Problem is for both you and Nick...you both have so little in the way of experience and objective knowledge or insights that you think you can cherry pick who is correct based entirely on what you want to believe. How convenient.

I would just observe that I get along fine with almost every shoemaker that has every posted to this board. We have our disagreements, yes. But we respect each other because we respect what it takes to get to where we are. You and Nick (and a few others) only get along with the ones who tell you what you want to hear because you don't have a frigging clue what it takes to be a shoemaker and don't respect those who do, or are.
post #937 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

For your shoe repair business or your bespoke shoe work? 

Have you ever refused bespoke work when customers insist on installing English toe plates?

I don't get many requests for toe plates because I am pretty vocal about what I think is good for the shoe and what is not. I see inset toe plates as fundamentally...almost by definition... destructive and as degrading of the beauty and aesthetics of a high quality shoe.

Have I ever refused? Not when the customer insisted...I said that. Pretty clearly, I thought.

But I can be pretty persuasive and I am committed to presenting any case logically and clearly and in as much detail as it takes.

Which is what bugs the hell out of you and others--you're not so committed..
post #938 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


I don't get many requests for toe plates because I am pretty vocal about what I think is good for the shoe and what is not. I see inset toe plates as fundamentally...almost by definition... destructive and as degrading of the beauty and aesthetics of a high quality shoe.

Have I ever refused? Not when the customer insisted...I said that. Pretty clearly, I thought.

But I can be pretty persuasive and I am committed to presenting any case logically and clearly and in as much detail as it takes.

Which is what bugs the hell out of you and others--you're not so committed..

 

For aesthetics alone toe plates is for sure degrading the beauty of shoe soles.  But they aren't installed for aesthetics but for practical purposes.  So are quarter rubber toplift or metal heel plates.

 

Where do you get more requests for topy or English toe plates? Bespoke customers or shoe repair customers?  Just curious.

 

I do believe spending my hard earned money on shoes or shoe care is quite committed.

post #939 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

For aesthetics alone toe plates is for sure degrading the beauty of shoe soles.  But they aren't installed for aesthetics but for practical purposes.  So are quarter rubber toplift or metal heel plates.

Where do you get more requests for topy or English toe plates? Bespoke customers or shoe repair customers?  Just curious.

I don't do a lot of repair anymore. And most of what I do is from shoe or boot customers bringing their bespoke work back to me. So If I talked them out of Topy or toe plates when they first ordered, they probably don't request they be done during resoling or reheeling. Most of my bespoke topy orders comes from older women on higher heels. And I haven't had a request for toe plates in years. Although I do have a few boot customers who want horse shoe heel plates on high, lonesome heels.
Quote:
I do believe spending my hard earned money on shoes or shoe care is quite committed.

It just means you maybe ought to be committed--to a "facility"--if you spend that money without really understanding what makes quality or not quality. Or if you don't care that there is a potential for problems...no matter how remote.

I am a maker. I'm not a user. Being a maker is a creative process. Any process that is destructive or that threatens to diminish or degrade what I do (or even what others do) is abhorrent to me.

I suspect such considerations are beyond your ken (understanding) not because you're a bad person...or at least not necessarily. But because you're inexperienced, untutored...and maybe unwashed.

Beyond all that, when I referred to committment I was observing that with few exceptions you and Nick express your unfounded personal opinions with no attempt to present a reasoned case, much less the mechanics to support your assertions. It's all "he said, she said." You're committed to expressing your feelings, and being heard whether or not you have anything valuable or constructive to add. But you're not committed to learning or understanding or even contributing in such a way that anyone can understand.

It's all just so contrarian. And smirkily adolescent.

--
Edited by DWFII - 3/18/16 at 6:16pm
post #940 of 1710

Fact is, some shoemakers choose or provide the option to install toe plates while a few minorities don't offer or recommend against them.

 

Judging from a Vass and a SC dissections I've observed, toe plate nails/screws certainly did not damage the hand-welted inseaming; the insoles for the Vass pair were already worn through around the ball area due to age.

 

I cannot extrapolate two data points to throw a blanket statement to cover all handwelted shoes, but they certainly did not support your argument.

 

I could, of course, send Nick another pair of my Meermin handwelted shoes to torn apart for pictures of the insole/inseaming, but I doubt three data points could convince you otherwise.  And I am not sure if you could be persuaded even with empirical evidences in high confidence levels or other shoemakers comments.

 

As I've stated before, it doesn't take a shoemaker to comment on or appreciate shoes, not does it take a brewer to enjoy or comment on Scotch.

 

p.s., I don't think its fair to say Nick doesn't know anything about shoemaking; he certainly has seen large enough volumes to draw empirical conclusions.

post #941 of 1710

Back to techniques.  What's the purpose of having "braided/twisted" inseaming around the toe of the shoes?

 

post #942 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

As I've stated before, it doesn't take a shoemaker to comment on or appreciate shoes, not does it take a brewer to enjoy or comment on Scotch.

Depends on how you define "enjoy" or "comment." It certainly takes someone who is far more knowledgeable about Scotch than you are about shoes to make anything resembling intelligent or useful comments. And as far as enjoying, if you don't know what you're drinking it might as well be moonshine. You'll enjoy that in exactly the same way and to the same degree.
Quote:
p.s., I don't think its fair to say Nick doesn't know anything about shoemaking; he certainly has seen large enough volumes to draw empirical conclusions.

It's one thing to see; it's one thing to hear...it's quite another thing to do. Have you ever heard of optical illusions? Everyone of us can see something that really isn't there. Everyone of us is capable of picking / accusing the wrong man in the lineup. And everyone of us can interpret what we see in a way that is objectively wrong, esp. if we don't have the experience or knowledge to know what we're looking at.

That applies to both you and Nick, in spades. I posted photos of slipped gemming...from inside the shoe as well as with the outsole taken off. And someone else posted a link to a blog where a cachet-brand pair of GY shoes were deconstructed, which clearly showed gem slippage in an otherwise relatively unworn and carefully maintained pair of shoes..

Neither you nor Nick...nor a number of others...had the background, experience or insight to see and recognize...or perhaps, more to the point, the authenticity to acknowledge...what was right before your very eyes. That's either willfully ignorant...to the point of stupidity or willfully contrarian to the point of trolling.

And sorry to disappoint--I'm not ever going to meet your delicate PC sensibilities. If pointing out the truth is unfair, too bad. Don't come at me with childish denials and arguments patently made solely for the sake of argument. Don't give me the opportunity to point out how clueless and devoid of experience your arguments are.

--
Edited by DWFII - 3/18/16 at 6:18pm
post #943 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

What's the purpose of having "braided/twisted" inseaming around the toe of the shoes?

The welting stitches are fanned-out to cope with the tight radius around the toe. The stitches around the toe have the same length as the other stitches (about 1/4") but on the inside they are much closer together due to the curvature. There is a danger that pulling the stitches tight could make them rip through the leather.

Hence the reinforcement by either meandering a piece of thread between the stitches or placing an additional knot onto each stitch on the inside around the tight curve. Both methods do prevent the stitches from ripping through the holdfast.
post #944 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Back to techniques.  What's the purpose of having "braided/twisted" inseaming around the toe of the shoes?



This has been discussed before...you might have picked up on it if you were really interested in learning.

It is not braiding in the true sense. It is just interweaving a short strand of thread as a way to bridge and reinforce stitches in an area where stitches must be placed uncomfortably close together and then tightened down with some force--an action which, depending on the quality of the insole, might pop a stitch or two.

Such work is not always needed even in close quarters such as this. But the maker obviously determined that there might(again) possibly, potentially, be a problem and did what he could to forestall it...despite there being no overt sign that there actually was a problem.

Do the name Ruby Begonia strike a familiar note?

So there's another tidbit for your internal database that you, not having done such stitching or ever having faced the problems inherent in closely spaced stitching in indeterminate quality leather, may never fully understand.

But one can hope...albeit a Forlorn Hope...that you will annotate with where you got it from--that stubbornly misguided, obviously wrong, and decidedly not top-notch shoemaker who just generously gave you some of his life's energy.

--
post #945 of 1710
Thread Starter 
PS...that's a damn fine job of inseaming.

And to the point of another discussion, as far as I can tell from the photo, with little or no removal of leather inside the holdfast.
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