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Shoemaking Techniques and Traditions--"...these foolish things..." - Page 60

post #886 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by marcodalondra View Post


My message above may have been missed in the exchange , what about the Italian Presot as an alternative to Baker

I thought that La Querce was the best veg tannery in Italy for outsoles/insoles.  

post #887 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapasman View Post

I thought that La Querce was the best veg tannery in Italy for outsoles/insoles.  
Presot is considered the very best and last traditional tannery.

They have three qualities of sole leather and each comes in different thickness. The Super Oro is the best
post #888 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

I understand. I love Baker...all the way around. I recommend it and extol it...and buy elsewhere--such as Masur

As frustrating as they are they are nice people who make unique leather. Worth perservering with on principal in my view, even if only as a side line leather
post #889 of 1710

If fitting a toeplate during the making of bespoke shoes all the maker has to do is make the groove for the stitches deeper around the toe so they can sit further into the sole, then when the inset for the plate is cut the stitches don't get touched.The screws are small and nearly always brass, if you are worried about damage to the welt the particular screws can be clipped shorter but I have not found this a problem when making and repairing bespoke shoes. I accept some shoes may have been damaged but with a little planning this can be avoided .


Edited by j-mac - 3/17/16 at 7:37am
post #890 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by j-mac View Post

If fitting a toeplate during the making of bespoke shoes all the maker has to do is make the groove for the stitches deeper around the toe so they can sit further into the sole, then when the inset for the plate is cut the stitches don't get touched.The screws are small and nearly always brass, if you are worried about damage to the welt the particular screws can be clipped shorter but I have not found this a problem when making and repairing bespoke shoes.

I accept some shoes may have be damaged but with a little planning this can be avoided .

I don't.

As far as "planning" goes, I'm sure you're right. But very few high end makers and maybe fewer bespoke makers (despite the nature of bespoke) make shoes with toe plates as a default. And there is a reason for that, beyond the fact that It has to be requested...and the extra effort brought to bear. As a general rule makers don't like to damage their work right out of the gate.

Yes, a maker can do it. Yes, most makers will do it if the customer requests. Even this maker will do it if...after expressing my reservations...the customer insists. That's what "bespoke" means. But I've never met a maker...or manufacturer...that offered it as anything but an "add-on" nor put them on their own personal shoes.

And most people here are asking about having plates mounted "after the fact" with little or no knowledge or consideration of the consequences to the shoe and the way it was made.

Beyond that, I am not convinced that the screws are "nearly always brass". But even if they were the logic of the thing raises questions: If the outsole is thinned to the point where the toe plate can be inset, how much of the substance of the outsole is left for the clipped screws to grab onto? Not much.

But more importantly, damaging the welt is not the issue. It never was (as I pointed out in a previous post--#879).
The holes in the plates are not positioned that close to the edge of the outsole. The screws, if they penetrate beyond that much reduced substance of the outsole, invariably threaten or damage the inseam. If the shoes are GY it may not be all that much of a problem--the screws enter and chew up the gemming and not the insole.

But on a handwelted shoe it is a needlessly destructive process...in my professional opinion.
post #891 of 1710
At first I didn't find the logic how the screws would damage the inseam looking it from a Goodyear perspective. Now that you clarified the potential harm that screws can cause on the inseam of the hand welt I find logic in that sense.
In Goodyear construction the worst scenario that screws can cause would indeed be the gemming, which all now make more sense to me after you clarified to potential harm on each constructions.
post #892 of 1710

I think I may have been misunderstood,I did specify my comments to bespoke work and  the fitting of plates in the initial making, As a UK maker I fit these very often and I have not had a problem flagged up to me and if I thought I deliberately damaged my work I would try and prevent this.I agree retro fitting can be a less preferable option in certain circumstances.

post #893 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by vmss View Post

At first I didn't find the logic how the screws would damage the inseam looking it from a Goodyear perspective. Now that you clarified the potential harm that screws can cause on the inseam of the hand welt I find logic in that sense.
In Goodyear construction the worst scenario that screws can cause would indeed be the gemming, which all now make more sense to me after you clarified to potential harm on each constructions.

fing02[1].gif

But then you get into the question of whether damaged gemming is a contributing factor in "gemming failure."

Beyond all this, which, I suspect, for most people (with the possible exception of bespoke makers) is like counting how many angels can dance on the head of a pin, is just the realization of how brilliant in design and execution a hand welted shoe is. As a feat of engineering, if nothing else.

Why is there is there this compulsion / fixation to so fundamentally alter the design and intent that damage is potentially done to the shoe--apparently to avoid having to resole sooner than might otherwise be convenient and most of the time for no other reason than that the shoe is not fit properly.

It occurs to me that people wouldn't seriously consider putting leather knee and elbow pads on a bespoke suit. Or cementing a formica laminate over the surface of a French Polished mahogany desk.

But why not? The rationale is the same in all cases.

--
Edited by DWFII - 3/17/16 at 7:42am
post #894 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by j-mac View Post

I think I may have been misunderstood,I did specify my comments to bespoke work and  the fitting of plates in the initial making, As a UK maker I fit these very often and I have not had a problem flagged up to me and if I thought I deliberately damaged my work I would try and prevent this.I agree retro fitting can be a less preferable option in certain circumstances.

I understood you. That's why I said "I'm sure you're right." And "yes, a maker can do it."

On the other hand, you did say "I accept some shoes may have to (sic) be damaged." What does that mean if you're not acknowledging that there is a potential for "damage"? What is the reader to make of such a statement?

In fact, I think you are correct--there is a potential for damage. And for what? What really is gained? If the screws are clipped, the point is taken off and a pilot hole must be made to start the screw. How much damage does that cause? And after the screws are driven...two turns? three? How secure are they going to be...short of a generous dollop of superglue?

And I have to point out that if "retro fitting can be a less preferable option" then I suspect the whole concept is problematic...whether it is a retrofit or not. Again, that's the brilliance of the hand welted shoe...it's a "gestalt." It's perfect the way it is. A leather outsole is a form of armour...intended to protect both the foot and the shoe structure itself. The"design" has evolved to make retrofitting...such as resoling...a "no harm, no foul" operation that can be done by people (cobblers) with skill sets significantly short of a maker's. All without potential damage. Introducing a "less preferable option" in the making seems somewhat self defeating...IMO.

You say you're a maker (I'm pretty sure I know who you are and, if that's true, I have nothing but respect for you and your work...you might even be one of my "heroes.")

But let me ask you a question...do you put toe plates on your own personal shoes?

And just to stir the pot a tiny bit do you put Topy on your personal shoes? devil.gif

--
Edited by DWFII - 3/17/16 at 7:57am
post #895 of 1710

 I made a little typo which I have corrected to " I accept that some shoes may have been damaged " and by this I meant that if done incorrectly or without thought then yes one could damage a shoe  in fitting a toeplate.I only offer a perspective from my shoemaking experience as a maker who fits these a lot  and these days always with brass screws  but I am happy to use other screws should the need arise.The screws do bite into the sole  the plates are also glued on but not 'superglue' just an ordinary contact glue to hold in place while the screws are put in. I have

never fitted plates to my own shoes as I don't seem to be heavy on the toes and I do indeed put a very thin rubber sole on my own shoes :)

Yes I am a maker been around a while, but no big deal

post #896 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by j-mac View Post

I think I may have been misunderstood,I did specify my comments to bespoke work and  the fitting of plates in the initial making, As a UK maker I fit these very often and I have not had a problem flagged up to me and if I thought I deliberately damaged my work I would try and prevent this.I agree retro fitting can be a less preferable option in certain circumstances.

+1
As I have been saying all the while.....We have done literally 1000's of these. NOT ONE SHOE has come back with welt, gemming, inseam stitching failure.
I've even asked the forum if anybody has had this occur to a job we did please help this discussion by letting us know. Not one has.

We buy our screws from an outfit that supplies the model hobby industry. It took me quite a while to find them but they are excellent. They are brass plated, have a Philips head rather than slotted and are a length that very rarely needs to be shortened.
post #897 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

+1
As I have been saying all the while.....We have done literally 1000's of these. NOT ONE SHOE has come back with welt, gemming, inseam stitching failure.
I've even asked the forum if anybody has had this occur to a job we did please help this discussion by letting us know. Not one has.

We buy our screws from an outfit that supplies the model hobby industry. It took me quite a while to find them but they are excellent. They are brass plated, have a Philips head rather than slotted and are a length that very rarely needs to be shortened.

So what?

I have made (and continue to make) shoes. You have not...ever. I have done (and continue to do) shoe repair. You have not...ever.

I have seen and dealt with...personally...shoes where the gemming has slipped to the point where getting them back together correctly became a problem. I have even documented this phenomenon with photos and links to websites. I have also acknowledged...repeatedly...that this doesn't always happen, esp. when shoes are worn in a large rotation and on carpets mostly.

But I have seen both.You apparently have not. This speaks to the breadth and depth of my experience and the dearth of yours.

I have seen shoes damaged by toe plates, and while I cannot remember a pair of shoes that had inset toe plates that were not at least "dented' on the insole by the screws, I have stressed that this is a "potential" problem not a guaranteed problem. I have seen it. I have dealt with it. You apparently have not. This speaks to the breadth and depth of my experience and the dearth of yours.

And, FYI, brass plated screws are not brass screws. The plating comes off, esp if clipped, and they rust same as steel screws. Save your money.

Again, I think it is a question of perspective.

edited for punctuation and clarity
Edited by DWFII - 3/17/16 at 8:37am
post #898 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by j-mac View Post

 I made a little typo which I have corrected to " I accept that some shoes may have been damaged " and by this I meant that if done incorrectly or without thought then yes one could damage a shoe  in fitting a toeplate.I only offer a perspective from my shoemaking experience as a maker who fits these a lot  and these days always with brass screws  but I am happy to use other screws should the need arise.The screws do bite into the sole  the plates are also glued on but not 'superglue' just an ordinary contact glue to hold in place while the screws are put in. I have
never fitted plates to my own shoes as I don't seem to be heavy on the toes and I do indeed put a very thin rubber sole on my own shoes smile.gif
Yes I am a maker been around a while, but no big deal

So you discount the occlusive nature of cement and rubber and the need (?) for outsoles to "breathe?"

I don't. I am trying my damnedest to eliminate cement from my making.

To me...again...it all seems like "gilding the lily. "

Well, "different horses" as they say...but at least as a maker you have a perspective that is based on objective experiences and not just speculation.

And, specifically in that context, FWIW, it is a big deal. It's the difference between pipe-drams and blowing smoke vs. objective knowledge--based, as Einstein said, on experience. I'm going on 50 years in the Trade, full time as a "compleat' maker. And I see too much magical thinking and bogus information esp. on the Internet and in some threads on StyleForum. It is a form of "dumbing down" even if incidental or inadvertent. And ultimately the loss of the Traditions, skills, and knowledge.

IMO.

--
Edited by DWFII - 3/17/16 at 10:03am
post #899 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by j-mac View Post

 I made a little typo which I have corrected to " I accept that some shoes may have been damaged " and by this I meant that if done incorrectly or without thought then yes one could damage a shoe  in fitting a toeplate.I only offer a perspective from my shoemaking experience as a maker who fits these a lot  and these days always with brass screws  but I am happy to use other screws should the need arise.The screws do bite into the sole  the plates are also glued on but not 'superglue' just an ordinary contact glue to hold in place while the screws are put in. I have
never fitted plates to my own shoes as I don't seem to be heavy on the toes and I do indeed put a very thin rubber sole on my own shoes smile.gif
Yes I am a maker been around a while, but no big deal

B-I-N-G-O.....Thank you for sharing your experience Sir!
post #900 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by j-mac View Post

I do indeed put a very thin rubber sole on my own shoes smile.gif

Mac,

PS...I put topy on my wife's shoes...at her insistence...but I tell her it's an abomination. lol8[1].gif

And her insoles turn black long before mine do.

And yes, thank you for sharing your experience. And while I might not agree entirely, "as a maker you have a perspective that is based on objective experiences and not just speculation."
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