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Shoemaking Techniques and Traditions--"...these foolish things..." - Page 39

post #571 of 1710
It looks as though the sock leather has been stretched to maximise yield, and once it's absorbed your perspiration it has shrunk back to its natural size
post #572 of 1710
The cream material is definitely NOT leather

It feels like a fabric of some kind: it feels slightly rough. I want to say it feels like canvas

These are also brand new, so it's not a shrinkage issue

It just looks as if the "sock liner" is cut too small and doesn't cover whatever the layer is underneath

Sorry it's hard to explain with just photos, and further compounded by my ignorance

These are supposedly handmade but are rustic in style (not from a proper bespoke dress shoe maker), not intended to be refined
I just want to know if this will deteriorate or if there are longevity issues
post #573 of 1710
Thread Starter 
It may feel rough but at highest magnification, I see no warp or weft. Short of actually seeing the shoes in person I still have to suspect it is leather.

If the black of the lining is a finish coat (and it almost certainly is) and has been abraded to accept the cement, or even if it was particularly vulnerable to the solvents in the cement, it will feel rough.

If the sockliner is is a sockliner what does that say about what is underneath it? The cream does not look like an insole at all. It is not the "right" colour. Nor does it have and visible substance (thickness). If the cream is an insole it is a p-poor one.

As far as handmade is concerned...the nails in the heelseat were driven by a machine, I can almost guarantee that.
post #574 of 1710
Interesting!

Here is a better zoomed in photo



I think you can see some type of warp/weft?

I do believe however that these were "object dyed"

That is, dyed after the entire shoe was constructed (literally dipped in a bucket of dye laces and all)

So it is conceivable that this is some non leather material that does not accept the dye?
post #575 of 1710
Well it looks rustic alright
post #576 of 1710
post #577 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Better photo but almost certainly not canvas. See the way in which the black of the lining "melds" into the "cream"? At highest magnification you can almost see the hair follicle pits in the both the black and the cream. And those black striations are typical of finish that has not been entirely removed. Although I suppose they could also be "seepage" but more likely from the flesh side.

Perhaps it was dyed after the fact. But more likely with a brush. If it had been dip dyed, one would expect that the edge of the sockliner /insole would also be black...which doesn't appear to be the case at highest resolution. Also the threads would be black. And the "edge" / margin between the cream and the black would be less distinct (although there doesn't seem to be any real "disconnect" or edge at all between the black and the cream--suggesting it is all one piece). Beyond that, if the cream were canvas the black dye would have wicked extensively and that edge would have been even less sharp--the canvas would have accepted the dye much,much more readily than the leather. And if it were dip-dyed or even dyed after the fact it certainly is an indication that something has moved / shrunk / been stretched beyond the original position.

Regardless (and short of actually inspecting the shoe in person most of this is admittedly at least in the realm of conjecture) it's not a good sign.If nothing else it suggests that things are not as they have been represented. But if the shoes fit you...and I suspect there's not a lot of options with regard to returning them...then just forget about it. It is what it is. The shoes probably...probably, no guarantees...won't explode underfoot.

edited for punctuation and clarity
Edited by DWFII - 1/4/16 at 6:47am
post #578 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntempleman View Post

Well it looks rustic alright
I like your sense of humor! (or is it humour?)
post #579 of 1710
Depends which version of English you adhere to; the one that you guys modified, or the one that we routinely butcher.
Edited by ntempleman - 1/5/16 at 3:10am
post #580 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntempleman View Post

Depends which version of English you adhere to; the one that you guys modified, or the one that we routinely butcher.
In our case, those two are not mutually exclusive!
post #581 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntempleman View Post

Depends which version of English you adhere to......

Or, these days far more likely, which version of English your spell-checker adheres to.

Whenever I type "labor", "humor", "honor", the thing screams in pain until I change it to "labour", "humour", "honour".
post #582 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by bengal-stripe View Post

Or, these days far more likely, which version of English your spell-checker adheres to.

Whenever I type "labor", "humor", "honor", the thing screams in pain until I change it to "labour", "humour", "honour".
Quite right too, but try getting it to accept 'advice' without it changing to advise
post #583 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

I have a hard time believing those are handmade, as well. But then anything is possible, I suppose, even if it doesn't make a lot of sense.

That said, I'm not sure what I'm seeing there. I cannot think of a single process that is consistent with handmade shoes that would result in this kind of slippage(?) / issue / problem.

My best guess(and it could be wildly wrong) is that the shoe is a cement construction--the upper glued to the underside of the insole--and the upper has broken the cement and pulled away from the insole. The cream colour is the lining leather that has lost the finish (dissolved by the cement) and the extent to which it shows is an indication of how much it has slipped.

This could have happened after the fact--such as when the shoe was stretched (if it was) or in the factory or by the maker if the shoe was mis-lasted. It's hard to tell.

Overall ...and another guess...I'd have to say it's not a good sign.

I'm thinking the same as you in this too. I just don't know what those indents / nails are by the heel. It just seems off and just by looking at the overall materials it does not seem hand made either.

Who is the maker for these shoes? @skeen
post #584 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by skeen7908 View Post

Interesting!

Here is a better zoomed in photo



I think you can see some type of warp/weft?

I do believe however that these were "object dyed"

That is, dyed after the entire shoe was constructed (literally dipped in a bucket of dye laces and all)

So it is conceivable that this is some non leather material that does not accept the dye?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntempleman View Post

Could be leather board

http://www.algeos.com/acatalog/Leatherboard

Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Better photo but almost certainly not canvas. See the way in which the black of the lining "melds" into the "cream"? At highest magnification you can almost see the hair follicle pits in the both the black and the cream. And those black striations are typical of finish that has not been entirely removed. Although I suppose they could also be "seepage" but more likely from the flesh side.

Perhaps it was dyed after the fact. But more likely with a brush. If it had been dip dyed, one would expect that the edge of the sockliner /insole would also be black...which doesn't appear to be the case at highest resolution. Also the threads would be black. And the "edge" / margin between the cream and the black would be less distinct (although there doesn't seem to be any real "disconnect" or edge at all between the black and the cream--suggesting it is all one piece). Beyond that, if the cream were canvas the black dye would have wicked extensively and that edge would have been even less sharp--the canvas would have accepted the dye much,much more readily than the leather. And if it were dip-dyed or even dyed after the fact it certainly is an indication that something has moved / shrunk / been stretched beyond the original position.

Regardless (and short of actually inspecting the shoe in person most of this is admittedly at least in the realm of conjecture) it's not a good sign.If nothing else it suggests that things are not as they have been represented. But if the shoes fit you...and I suspect there's not a lot of options with regard to returning them...then just forget about it. It is what it is. The shoes probably...probably, no guarantees...won't explode underfoot.

edited for punctuation and clarity

It is still rough to tell but does the maker/company do medical or orthopedic shoes? Is that yellow stuff pretty firm too?

It could be a plastizote or type of foam used in that industry of shoemaking for support. It also can more of an accommodative filler to add cushioning if it is soft. The problem with those orthopedic materials is that they need to be replaced or refurbished much sooner than using just leather or cork with leather.

I commonly use them with orthotics for certain foot types and activity levels.

If that is the case, you can just have that sock liner removed and have a new one cut to cover the inside. Then you can just be prepared to check out the show every once in a while to have it repaired if that material breaks down too quickly for you.

With regular use, those materials usually only last a couple years at most because they will rub/break down
post #585 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntempleman View Post

Well it looks rustic alright

Quote:
Originally Posted by shoefan View Post

I like your sense of humor! (or is it humour?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntempleman View Post

Depends which version of English you adhere to; the one that you guys modified, or the one that we routinely butcher.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shoefan View Post

In our case, those two are not mutually exclusive!

Quote:
Originally Posted by OzzyJones View Post

Quite right too, but try getting it to accept 'advice' without it changing to advise

I wish we could just all get along and standardize it. I really hate the autocorrect from Advise to advice too
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