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Shoemaking Techniques and Traditions--"...these foolish things..."

DWFII

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I just looked at the Goetz page--Goetz carries both insole shoulders and insole bends (an oxymoron, IMO).

The thickest the shoulders come in appears to be 3.5mm. which is roughly 6-7 iron (a little over 1/8").

FWIW....
 

DWFII

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Happy New Year!! ...New York time...from the West Coast...

400


Now off to bed.
 
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thelonius

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Not 'pure speculation' where the bespoke costs are discussed. I know what the outworkers, who comprise the majority of the expenses, are paid. I also know what the 'bottoming leather' (insole, outsole, welt, heel lifts, top lifts, toe puff,and heel counter) costs. Further, I know how long a skilled pattern maker will take to make a pattern, and how long it takes them to 'click' the leather. Granted, I don't know the wage rate for those who perform the latter two tasks, but a reasonable range of wages has relatively little impact on the total cost. Finally, I know what the typical bespoke leather costs (at Crack and Sons, who sell leathers to the West End bespoke trade); of course, the leather cost is a function of the specific leather chosen and the number of shoes made from that leather. But, these numbers are anything but 'pure speculation.' Furthermore, you speak for whom exactly when you say the calculations are of little interest?
But the making of a pair of shoes by the other shoe firms in the region, for close comparison, that retails at a third of the price than a pair of EGs, still has about the same number of people involved in its making, using near enough the same number of steps, and I don't suppose (but don't know - that would be interesting) the labour will be paid much differently. If these other brands are making the typical margin that you mention, then EG margins must be 3x more than these other brands.
 
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shoefan

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But the making of a pair of shoes by the other shoe firms in the region, for close comparison, that retails at a third of the price than a pair of EGs, still has about the same number of people involved in its making, using near enough the same number of steps, and I don't suppose (but don't know - that would be interesting) the labour will be paid much differently. If these other brands are making the typical margin that you mention, then EG margins must be 3x more than these other brands.
Talk about "pure speculation." Do Ford and Ferrari have the same man-hours invested in the manufacturing of a car? They're both cars, after all? What about material costs, wherein Ford use stamped steel, whereas Ferrari and its ilk use hand-laid carbon fiber? Do those cost the same? So, if Ford sells a car for $25,000, those Ferrari S.O.B.'s must be totally ripping people off when their cars sell for $250,000. Or Mercedes, selling an 'S' class for north of $100,000 -- the utter gall! Oh yeah, forgot about all the technologies they first deployed (air bags, 8 speed transmission, lane departure systems, anti-lock brakes, heads-up displays, etc); oh yeah, and the quality of their leather interiors; oh, and the thickness of their steel,etc.

Edward Green does all sorts of things that the lower priced brands don't do -- they use leather heel counters, they hand click the leather, they build their leather heel stacks one layer at a time, the quality of their leather is superb, they apply their burnished/antiqued finishes by hand. All of these things take time (and hence money). And, they are a much smaller brand, so the manufacturing scale economies available to larger firms are not available to them. Look, I don't know what their costs are, but I've toured their (previous) facility and seen what and how they do things, and I've reflected at length at what I learned. Not that makes my assessment correct, but, most assuredly, what you present appears based on pure assumption and speculation.

And, to be pedantic: if one of 'the other shoe firms in the region' sells a shoe (retail) for $500, with a 2.5x markup to retail and a 50% gross margin, then their gross margin is $100; if EG has the same cost and sell a shoe for $1500 retail shoe with a 2.5x markup and the same manufacturing cost, then their gross margin is $500 ($600 wholesale price - $100 mfg cost), or 5x more, not 3x more.

Finally, if EG gross margins are so huge, why aren't they advertising more? Have you ever considered why there are so many ads for products like perfume, cosmetics, prescription drugs, designer purses, and the like in print publications? It is because their gross margins are so huge (way more than 50%, often 90% or even more in the case of patented drugs and things like upscale vodka), so every incremental sale contributes a significant profit bump; hence, it is worth it for them to advertise like crazy to drive incremental volume. If EG indeed had 83% gross margins ($600/unit revenue - $100 unit cost), don't you think Hillary Freeman et al are smart enough to figure out that advertising would drive increased profits through incremental volume growth?
 

thelonius

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Talk about "pure speculation." Do Ford and Ferrari have the same man-hours invested in the manufacturing of a car? They're both cars, after all? What about material costs, wherein Ford use stamped steel, whereas Ferrari and its ilk use hand-laid carbon fiber? Do those cost the same? So, if Ford sells a car for $25,000, those Ferrari S.O.B.'s must be totally ripping people off when their cars sell for $250,000. Or Mercedes, selling an 'S' class for north of $100,000 -- the utter gall! Oh yeah, forgot about all the technologies they first deployed (air bags, 8 speed transmission, lane departure systems, anti-lock brakes, heads-up displays, etc); oh yeah, and the quality of their leather interiors; oh, and the thickness of their steel,etc.

Edward Green does all sorts of things that the lower priced brands don't do -- they use leather heel counters, they hand click the leather, they build their leather heel stacks one layer at a time, the quality of their leather is superb, they apply their burnished/antiqued finishes by hand. All of these things take time (and hence money). And, they are a much smaller brand, so the manufacturing scale economies available to larger firms are not available to them. Look, I don't know what their costs are, but I've toured their (previous) facility and seen what and how they do things, and I've reflected at length at what I learned. Not that makes my assessment correct, but, most assuredly, what you present appears based on pure assumption and speculation.

And, to be pedantic: if one of 'the other shoe firms in the region' sells a shoe (retail) for $500, with a 2.5x markup to retail and a 50% gross margin, then their gross margin is $100; if EG has the same cost and sell a shoe for $1500 retail shoe with a 2.5x markup and the same manufacturing cost, then their gross margin is $500 ($600 wholesale price - $100 mfg cost), or 5x more, not 3x more.

Finally, if EG gross margins are so huge, why aren't they advertising more? Have you ever considered why there are so many ads for products like perfume, cosmetics, prescription drugs, designer purses, and the like in print publications? It is because their gross margins are so huge (way more than 50%, often 90% or even more in the case of patented drugs and things like upscale vodka), so every incremental sale contributes a significant profit bump; hence, it is worth it for them to advertise like crazy to drive incremental volume. If EG indeed had 83% gross margins ($600/unit revenue - $100 unit cost), don't you think Hillary Freeman et al are smart enough to figure out that advertising would drive increased profits through incremental volume growth?

Well, as you don't cite any real figures, once more one can only say - maybe right and maybe not. I suspect it's more a case of strategy. Yes, EG do do things other firms don't, and yes, they do probably use some more expensive materials. But probably none of these elements can account for the price hike, not even the hogs bristle sewing. I bet it's a question of reputation, limited production (= rarity) which I read is kept at 350 pairs per week. And of course, there's no need to spend too much effort on advertising - quite the contrary. The rich of this world want to possess objects that are rare and unique-ish, not something that they see regularly advertised on TV. A similar comparison can be made with the luxury watch industry. Patek Philippe for example - limited editions, virtually no advertising. But the main problem with all this is the lack of real figures contributed by people who have access to them or knowledge of them. Now that would be interesting and useful indeed.
 

chogall

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The number makes sense and sounds similar to other retail manufacturing operations. But it sounds like you are not a business or a numbers person.

Besides, you must be smoking some putrid stuff if you believe EG is for the riches. Maybe visiting the EG thread for details.

And EG is not Patek of the shoe world.
 

thelonius

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The number makes sense and sounds similar to other retail manufacturing operations. But it sounds like you are not a business or a numbers person.

Besides, you must be smoking some putrid stuff if you believe EG is for the riches. Maybe visiting the EG thread for details.

And EG is not Patek of the shoe world.

Diana Spencer pursuaded her husband at the time (Prince Charles) to buy a pair of EGs. It was against the grain, but he did it. Victoria probably turned slightly in her coffin. But, of course, I do agree with you that EGs are not for the really rich of this world. But even so, at the prices they charge one has to be fairly well off.

Your pathetic contribution adds nothing to the discussion. It's irrelevant if the "number makes sense and sounds familiar to othe retail......". Makes sense to whom? Because each manufacturer has its own strategy and marketing plan. And the comparison between the luxury shoe and luxury watch industy is not bad at all, IMO. What is needed is some real figures for these firms to be able to have a real idea about their operations. Incidently, I have been in retail for a number of years - that's why I'm responding to the thread. I know what it means to buy from a provider, to do all the accounting, to sell to customers, to pay rent on the shop, and all the taxes, and to pay staff, and still to find something for yourself. Have you?
 

ballmouse

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While I imagine the cost of production is a factor of the price of shoes, I also think that other factors such as supply/demand, the price the customer is willing to pay (as I imagine men's shoes have seen a huge boost in popularity), and the fact that luxury clothing has often used increased as a selling point rather than the result of demand/quality.
 

chogall

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Diana Spencer pursuaded her husband at the time (Prince Charles) to buy a pair of EGs. It was against the grain, but he did it. Victoria probably turned slightly in her coffin. But, of course, I do agree with you that EGs are not for the really rich of this world. But even so, at the prices they charge one has to be fairly well off.

Your pathetic contribution adds nothing to the discussion. It's irrelevant if the "number makes sense and sounds familiar to othe retail......". Makes sense to whom? Because each manufacturer has its own strategy and marketing plan. And the comparison between the luxury shoe and luxury watch industy is not bad at all, IMO. What is needed is some real figures for these firms to be able to have a real idea about their operations. Incidently, I have been in retail for a number of years - that's why I'm responding to the thread. I know what it means to buy from a provider, to do all the accounting, to sell to customers, to pay rent on the shop, and all the taxes, and to pay staff, and still to find something for yourself. Have you?

It should be easy to draw parallel from their industry in general for the margin range. For example, both Wolverine World Wide and Sketchers have gross margin of around 40%. King of el cheapo shoes, Crocs, has GM of around 50%, mostly due to their very low cost of outsourced manufacturing. Direct subsidiary sales margin is usually 45% and wholesale is usually less than 40%.

Luxury footwear should have slightly higher margins. Even the top luxury house, Hermes, has less than 70% margins when they run a vertically integrated business model with over 65% products sourced from their own operations.

Don't mistake per item margin for retail shops for the margins of the whole supply chain; its drastically different.

Again, shoefan's numbers make a lot of sense and should be around the ballpark.
 

DWFII

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The next five are X-posted from the Japanese thread...


I quite like the handsewn apron details, but I want to ask: how does one tell the difference between a handsewn, and a pair that is not??

1000


The most obvious tell is that the toes is "skin stitched"--the thread enters the leather on the flesh surface, penetrates a little more than halfway through the substance of the leather, emerges on the very edge and enters the connecting piece at the very edge emerging on the surface of the fleshside of the leather. It's essentially a tunnel stitch and the thread never shows on the grain side. The point is that this cannot be done by machine.

The apron stitch itself is done similarly except that the stitches are visible.The top piece is done as a tunnel stitch but the sides are penetrated perpendicular to the substance of the leather. Again, this kind of stitch cannot be done by machine.

In both cases, the stitching has a very distinctive appearance once you know what you're looking at.

Sorry if the explanation is clumsy...that's the best I got this morning.
 
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DWFII

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thank you for your explanation, can you elaborate on tunnel stitching?



More or less like this (side view with the thread following the white "tunnel"):

700


I generally do this with a very tiny curved sewing awl (IIRC they were called cricket awls) and a bristled 3 cord linen (or dacron) thread waxed with a neutral hand wax or beeswax.

700


I've done it from both sides--from the fleshside so that the thread is not exposed (as in the toe of the shoe you posted) and from the grainside so that it is (as in the following photo) .

700


The oldtimers call this "split and lift" and it was done on a curved block that was held to the knee with a stirrup.

--
 

DWFII

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wow, the threads go in between the leather! didn't know that, and that explains the bulging in the leather around the apron.

1000


Yes, and on the toe too.

And if the leather is good enough quality and thick enough relative to the thread and the hole...and all other things being equal...skin stitching, or split and lift, is the strongest method of joining two pieces of leather known.

[Parenthetically, hand welted inseams are very similar and with some types of hand welted inseams, identical. IOW, the diagram above represents the path of the thread for inseaming as well. Did I mention "strongest method of joining two pieces of leather"?]
 

DWFII

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Two comments regarding the 'tunnel stitch.' First, the apron seam as shown is what, I believe, the old-timers would call the split and lift. The toe seam (and DW's illustration) show what I believe is called a round stitch, or a round-closed seam. In the apron stitch shown, only one side of the stitch features the 'tunnel' element -- the other side of the stitch penetrates the full thickness of the leather (on the vamp/sole-side piece of leather).

I also believe that, traditionally, the round stitch was used on a side seam of riding boots; in addition to its strength, it was done for comfort -- there is no thread penetrating through to the inside of the leather (it was done on the exterior of the boot/leather), so there was no exposed thread to irritate the foot when the side of the foot is rubbing the horse's flank; further, because the seam has a bit of a ridge or mound of leather (see the photo of DW's shoe featuring that seam), the thread doesn't get rubbed by the horse's side (nor by the spur if being used), as the raised ridge of leather absorbs the friction.

It does seem, at first blush, hard to understand how this (a round stitch) seam would be stronger than that made by stitching through the full thickness of the leather, but I guess if done correctly there is more leather in the stitch than in a sewing machine-type stitch (i.e. a stabbed stitch).


The nomenclature...as well as the instructions of how to do it...came from one of, if not the, foremost shoe historians in the world--D. A. Saguto. We have been colleagues and friends for many years and he has taught me a lot....but I could have misunderstood.

The stitch on the shoe is an old one--a replica of work done in the 18th century (and earlier). It was used on shoes (as with this shoe) as often as...perhaps more often...than on boots where riding was a factor.

I have seen side-seamed boots from across many centuries and more than one or two cultures, and I have never seen a "round stitched" side seam. Not saying they're not out there but...I'm from Missouri.

Esp. in situations where stirrups are used, side seams get a lot of wear--it's one of the first places a side-seamed riding boot will wear through...not because of the seam (which is turned inward and thus ultimately protected) but because of the way the leather of the tops tends to create large pipes at, and above, the ankle (something that doesn't happen so much with closely fitted back-seamed boots). A "round seamed" side seam would wear through quickly.

Side seam boots with the seam turned inward seldom (if ever) rub the foot or leg if fit properly.

In my initial remarks, I addressed the issue of the apron being "tunnel stitched" on only one side:

The apron stitch itself is done similarly except that the stitches are visible.The top piece is done as a tunnel stitch but the sides are penetrated perpendicular to the substance of the leather.

And, BTW...just to set the record straight...shoefan is correct about the names of the types of stitches.

--
 
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DWFII

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For anyone interested in this technique there is a good..and unimpeachable...essay on the subject here (I would quote it but it is long and contains at least one photo).
 

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@DWFII Have you worked with llama calf/baby llama before? Any thoughts about it's strength/durability/etc?
 

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