or Connect
Styleforum › Forums › Men's Style › Classic Menswear › Shoemaking Techniques and Traditions--"...these foolish things..."
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Shoemaking Techniques and Traditions--"...these foolish things..." - Page 86

post #1276 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whirling View Post

I think it's great that this thread welcomes genuine, direct questions regarding "shoemaking techniques and traditions" from absolutely anybody who has the inclination and ability to post them here.

I think it's great that people with years of experience actually making bespoke shoes share their knowledge, wisdom, and views for free.

so just quoting the bolded part.. 2 pictures with 2 different questions

PICTURE 1


Why is he stitching a canvas strip around the welt? Also it seems that he is doing two paralel seams: one on the welt and the second one on the canvas with the same thread. I don't know if this posible as I can't figure how to 'pass' the thread from the welt to the strip.
I also noticed that the is 360 degrees welt nailed at the heel.

PICTURE 2



I am not sure if I understand what is going here. I can see a welt!? that is not stitched. I can see a cork board on top that probably needs to be trimmed but it seem that that the leather folds over the cork. Is just the photo angle or something is not clear here?
post #1277 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by asturiano View Post


Why is he stitching a canvas strip around the welt? Also it seems that he is doing two paralel seams: one on the welt and the second one on the canvas with the same thread. I don't know if this posible as I can't figure how to 'pass' the thread from the welt to the strip.
I also noticed that the is 360 degrees welt nailed at the heel.


In the first photo, the maker is hand sewing the welt to gemming. Fundamentally he is doing a hand-sewn Goodyear Welted construction. Why one would go to all that trouble and all that labour and not channel the insole is beyond me.

The two lines of stitching are the outside and inside of an inseam. A hole is made, with a sewing awl, that pierces the gemming, the upper and upper liner, and the welt. The thread is then run through that hole using a pair of thin needles (wire bristles) or boars bristles functioning as needles.

What you see as a 360° welt is just a heel seat that has been nailed on.
Quote:
PICTURE 2

I am not sure if I understand what is going here. I can see a welt!? that is not stitched. I can see a cork board on top that probably needs to be trimmed but it seem that that the leather folds over the cork. Is just the photo angle or something is not clear here?

Here a large sheet of cork has been mounted over the forepart and sanded down to blend in with the welt and upper. the cork is partially covering the welt. The welt is there, the inseam is there...it's just all covered by cork.

PS...on edit...maybe not. The photo itself isn't clear.

--
Edited by DWFII - 5/8/16 at 5:58am
post #1278 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by asturiano View Post

so just quoting the bolded part.. 2 pictures with 2 different questions

PICTURE 1


Why is he stitching a canvas strip around the welt? Also it seems that he is doing two paralel seams: one on the welt and the second one on the canvas with the same thread. I don't know if this posible as I can't figure how to 'pass' the thread from the welt to the strip.
I also noticed that the is 360 degrees welt nailed at the heel.

PICTURE 2



I am not sure if I understand what is going here. I can see a welt!? that is not stitched. I can see a cork board on top that probably needs to be trimmed but it seem that that the leather folds over the cork. Is just the photo angle or something is not clear here?

Regarding the stitch in the picture -- that is a traditional 'shoemaker's' or 'saddle maker's' stitch -- there are two ends to the thread, each one weaves in/out of the hole (in opposite directions), and thus they cross in the middle of the stitch. This makes a very strong stitch, since if one thread happens to snap at some point after the shoe is made, there remains a continuous thread in the same area. Moreover, a well done stitch is essentially 'locked' into place with shoemaker's hand wax, and the thread is tightly packed into the hole in the holdfast/welt. The stitch looks like this: =x=x=x=x=
one thread at any time is on one side of what's being sewn, the other thread is on the opposite side of the material. The 'x' is where the two threads go through the material and cross in the middle of the material.

It looks to me as if the fabric may be serving as the holdfast, instead of using any of the insole leather (i.e. akin to 'gymming' in a GYW shoe), although the fabric looks rather thin to be strong enough on its own to hold the stitch. Or, the maker may be taking a very shallow 'bite' of the leather and hence may need some additional strength to prevent the stitch ripping out; backing the insole with the fabric may accomplish this.

That black pair looks like it is not actually welted, it is just a faux welt and the construction is reliant on glue/adhesive. It is actually rather hard to believe that the welt would stay on the shoe when flexed if the outsole is later stitched to the welt, although I guess modern adhesives perhaps can accomplish that. The heel looks like the leather has been sanded to flatten out the heel seat and also to improve the adherence of the adhesive to be used. It is common to rough up leather before glueing it to improve adhesion.

Edit: DW thinks the inseam is hidden by the cork, which is certainly possible. Although, that is a wide welt if indeed the seam is hidden under the cork.
post #1279 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoefan View Post


That black pair looks like it is now actually welted, it is just a faux welt and the construction is reliant on glue/adhesive. It is actually rather hard to believe that the welt would stay on the shoe when flexed if the outsole is later stitched to the welt, although I guess modern adhesives perhaps can accomplish that.

shoefan,

The more I look at it (the photo quality is not that good) the more I wonder. Sometimes I think I see a "channel" in the welt, sometimes I don't. I've seen that technique once or twice.

But I agree with you, I don't believe that there is any cement in existence that will hold standard welt in place for any length of time. That said, a bon welt is more or less cemented in place and it relies on its connection to the outsole for stability and placement. Maybe the theory is the same here. It doesn't look like a bon wel, though.

And that white stuff around the toe...between the vamp and welt--super glue?
post #1280 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderMarch View Post

+1
You know, I'd second that. 
I think that StyFo is a lot of fun. But more than that, it is also a community that welcomes and encourages experts and shoemakers / tailors / industry experts, to actually come in and contribute and discuss ideas.
And to educate. 
I owe a lot of what I know or have learnt, to many of the makers who have contributed here; DW, Jmac, shoefan, Nicholas.
I mostly feel like a leech, but am very grateful to have expert opinions and input, that help to elevate the level of disccusion to another level, beyond just patting each other on the back, that does tend to happen quite a bit on SF. 


No need to feel like a leech. I can't speak for anyone else but I come here to share and educate (as off-putting and presumptuous as that may be to those who are beyond learning). I am at the end of my career and probably closing in on the end of my life. I want to make a difference in the way shoes and the Trade and the Traditions are viewed. We've forgotten so much. And come to expect so little. For some people this is all news to them.

When I was coming up, the Traditional approach to learning was to sit at the master's feet. Maybe not literally but metaphorically. And it's a good system because it expects the student to suppress his own ego (temporarily) and listen. If a student wants to argue, he's wasting everyone's time including his own, simply because no one can learn when their own mouth is flapping. Or when they are opposing what is being taught.

I learned that way. I sat at my master's feet...sometimes literally. And when I didn't agree with something my mentor said, I either STFU or I gently asked for a further explanation. And then I STFU. I did that out off respect and, more importantly, because it was contrary to all hope of learning. It was never...nor should it have been...a subject for dispute.

That said, every teacher...even if he's being paid...does it because he wants to share. Wants to give. It is very like opening a vein. So maybe blood is involved but it's all voluntary. lol8[1].gif

Just deal with it with respect--respect for the knowledge itself, if nothing else. And respect the teacher just because he or she is giving you something of himself--of his time, of his energy--it's a gift, maybe even of infinite value.

--
Edited by DWFII - 5/8/16 at 8:10am
post #1281 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

shoefan,

The more I look at it (the photo quality is not that good) the more I wonder. Sometimes I think I see a "channel" in the welt, sometimes I don't. I've seen that technique once or twice.

But I agree with you, I don't believe that there is any cement in existence that will hold standard welt in place for any length of time. That said, a bon welt is more or less cemented in place and it relies on its connection to the outsole for stability and placement. Maybe the theory is the same here. It doesn't look like a bon wel, though.

And that white stuff around the toe...between the vamp and welt--super glue?

The one other thing that is a bit odd to me -- I would expect the line of stitching on the welt to line up pretty much with the sanded part of the upper at the (lateral) heel/waist, since that sanded line seems to mark out the feather edge of the last. Wouldn't you think the inseam would more or less line up with the feather edge? Certainly there is no line of stitching starting at that location. If there is an inseam hidden under the cork, the inseam is way inboard of the feather edge.

I wouldn't think super glue, since it is for non-porous materials, but perhaps some other adhesive?
post #1282 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


[/I][/B]

No need to feel like a leech. I can't speak for anyone else but I come here to share and educate (as off-putting and presumptuous as that may be to those who are beyond learning). I am at the end of my career and probably closing in on the end of my life. I want to make a difference in the way shoes and the Trade and the Traditions are viewed. We've forgotten so much. And come to expect so little. For some people this is all news to them.

When I was coming up, the Traditional approach to learning was to sit at the master's feet. Maybe not literally but metaphorically. And it's a good system because it expects the student to suppress his own ego (temporarily) and listen. If a student wants to argue, he's wasting everyone's time including his own, simply because no one can learn when their own mouth is flapping. Or when they are opposing what is being taught.

I learned that way. I sat at my master's feet...sometimes literally. And when I didn't agree with something my mentor said, I either STFU or I gently asked for a further explanation. And then I STFU. It was never...nor should it have been...a subject for dispute.

That said, every teacher...even if he's being paid...does it because he wants to share. Wants to give. It is very like opening a vein. So maybe blood is involved but it's all voluntary. lol8[1].gif

Just deal with it with respect--respect for the knowledge itself, if nothing else. And respect the teacher just because he or she is giving you something of himself--of his time, of his energy--it's a gift, maybe even of infinite value.

 

Am certainly thankful for the time and effort you take to answer the questions asked on the thread. Not just by me but everyone else as well. 

Of all the threads on SF, I probably enjoy this one the most. 

And with regards to the highlighted statement, I honestly think that the difference is felt. It might not revolutionise the way the very-factory-dominated way things are like now, but I think (and hope), slowly, one person at a time, things might change. 

post #1283 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoefan View Post

The one other thing that is a bit odd to me -- I would expect the line of stitching on the welt to line up pretty much with the sanded part of the upper at the (lateral) heel/waist, since that sanded line seems to mark out the feather edge of the last. Wouldn't you think the inseam would more or less line up with the feather edge? Certainly there is no line of stitching starting at that location. If there is an inseam hidden under the cork, the inseam is way inboard of the feather edge.

I wouldn't think super glue, since it is for non-porous materials, but perhaps some other adhesive?

The heel/waist appears to be nailed.

Not sure the following is to pertinent to your remarks but FWIW, although I whip the waist on cowboy boots, many makers don't. The inseam ends at the end of the welt and so whipped, nailed or pegged there are no stitches in the waist as a continuation of the inseam. It is a traditional construction on this type of footwear.

My initial thought is that the waist was intended to be pegged but if there is no inseam...if the maker thought cement was adequate all by itself...pegging or even nailing in the waist would seem contrary to intent and beside the point.

Superglue will work on leather and I've seen "shoemakers" / cobblers use it in all manner of applications during construction.

As an aside, FWIW & FYI, superglue is often used as a high gloss, extremely durable finish (like a varnish) on treen such as pens and pepper mills, etc..
post #1284 of 1710
I think that this shoemakers pegs, but in the hypothetical case case he doesn't do it. Is there any other way (rather than glue) to fix the sole?can he do a sort of blake stitch in the waist? I think he should need to use a sort of insole later.
Does it make sense what I am saying?
Anyhow I would try to get more pictures showing the same process on a different shoe.
Btw wouldn't you need quite a lot of excess lather folded over if you were to peg? Would the peg need to pierce sole+leather+insole to be effective?
I hope I am not talking rubbish....
post #1285 of 1710

I did not have time to read all threads.  I just wanted to say that before I buy a shoe (sometimes after), I want to know a bit more about their construction, materials and techniques used on it.  It is true that I have posted pics of differents shoes without mentioning the brand in the first post (I think DW is right to say this thread is to discuss tehniques no matter who the maker is in order to be more objective).  The problem is that after I post a pic and ask for opinion, many members PM me to to know the maker and I can´t handle that.  This time @ ntempleman asked me if the pic shown was a GG shoe so  I was about to say that it was an italian RTW maker, but my PM box was already full of messages so I was force again to mention the maker and stop the avalanche. The discussion took a path I did not wanted to.  Feel sorry for it.

post #1286 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by asturiano View Post
 

Thanks for answering my pm´s, you good and secret man.

post #1287 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapasman View Post

I did not have time to read all threads.  I just wanted to say that before I buy a shoe (sometimes after), I want to know a bit more about their construction, materials and techniques used on it.  It is true that I have posted pics of differents shoes without mentioning the brand in the first post (I think DW is right to say this thread is to discuss tehniques no matter who the maker is in order to be more objective).  The problem is that after I post a pic and ask for opinion, many members PM me to to know the maker and I can´t handle that.  This time @ ntempleman asked me if the pic shown was a GG shoe so  I was about to say that it was an italian RTW maker, but my PM box was already full of messages so I was force again to mention the maker and stop the avalanche. The discussion took a path I did not wanted to.  Feel sorry for it.

Why should you feel sorry about it? You did everything right. It is others...or maybe in this case (as so many other instances) just one other...who made it into a federal case.

I don't care if people post the name of the maker although it makes me hesitate to critique or answer a question if the answer might not go down good. I just think that it kind of destroys objectivity ...at least for some people who have a penchant for being defensive.
post #1288 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by asturiano View Post

I think that this shoemakers pegs, but in the hypothetical case case he doesn't do it. Is there any other way (rather than glue) to fix the sole?can he do a sort of blake stitch in the waist? I think he should need to use a sort of insole later.
Does it make sense what I am saying?

Well, hypothetically, yes it could be Blaked. It could also be nailed. But many makers think that cements are enough. I don't agree. I don't think a case can be made that relying on cement is anywhere near best practices.

Quote:
Btw wouldn't you need quite a lot of excess lather folded over if you were to peg? Would the peg need to pierce sole+leather+insole to be effective?
I hope I am not talking rubbish....

I don't think we know how much leather drafted into the waist...the cork pretty much obscures that area.

But you're right, no rubbish, to do a peg job correctly the pegs must secure the outsole as well as the vamp and vamp liner to the insole and probably to the last itself ...at least the points--that's what "peg floats" are for.
post #1289 of 1710

@Zapasman I think mentioning the maker is very important to these discussions. For us non-shoemakers, knowing which makers perform certain techniques and practices at a given price is extremely relevant, at least for me.

 

Until two days or so ago (whenever you discussed it), I had no idea what stitching aloft was or that it wasn't considered best practice. From what I can interpret, carving a holdfast is best practice, but I still don't understand what it's function is (maybe so that the welt leather sits more seamlessly along the insole, removing the need for a lot of cork?). I thought Bonafe, Vass, Meermin and other HW makers, were all more or less working with the same basic principles but varying things like quality of components, stitches per inch, etc. Then again, all that makes sense when you consider the price of a shoe. 

 

In summary, I think the maker should be identified. It's very pertinent to the discussion and provides insight to potential buyers (most of us reading this very thread). As long as we don't get into continually bashing cost-saving methods, we can hold insightful and meaningful discussion. 

post #1290 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by rbhan12 View Post
 

@Zapasman I think mentioning the maker is very important to these discussions. For us non-shoemakers, knowing which makers perform certain techniques and practices at a given price is extremely relevant, at least for me.

 

Until two days or so ago (whenever you discussed it), I had no idea what stitching aloft was or that it wasn't considered best practice. From what I can interpret, carving a holdfast is best practice, but I still don't understand what it's function is (maybe so that the welt leather sits more seamlessly along the insole, removing the need for a lot of cork?). I thought Bonafe, Vass, Meermin and other HW makers, were all more or less working with the same basic principles but varying things like quality of components, stitches per inch, etc. Then again, all that makes sense when you consider the price of a shoe. 

 

In summary, I think the maker should be identified. It's very pertinent to the discussion and provides insight to potential buyers (most of us reading this very thread). As long as we don't get into continually bashing cost-saving methods, we can hold insightful and meaningful discussion. 

Yes I understand.  But I think that would be much better to do it in the own shoemaker/brand thread.  I always do that, but most of the time nobody cares about it and I feel like a stranger, so I come here to get the answers without trying to mention names (at least that was my intention).

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Classic Menswear
Styleforum › Forums › Men's Style › Classic Menswear › Shoemaking Techniques and Traditions--"...these foolish things..."