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Shoemaking Techniques and Traditions--"...these foolish things..." - Page 84

post #1246 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by asturiano View Post

what is this? Can you consider this stitching aloft? I see no hold fast or channel. the upper seems to be folded over the insole and just glued. Then the welt is just stitched on top.

I am not sure if a channel is in there,

Again the photos leave a lot to be desired but in the second photo there seems to be a bevel just inward of the stitches...as if a shallow channel had been cut. Even if the leather is terribly flanky and loose fibered I doubt tightening the stitches could produce that effect by itself. Stitching aloft means stitching on the surface.

And as an aside, anytime the shoe is seamed directly to the insole, there is a holdfast whether it is stitched aloft or not, whether there is a "feather" or outside channel or not. We would all like to see a definitive, structured holdfast (or at least I would) but all a holdfast is, is the substance (in this case, of insole leather) between the two sides of the inseam. It "holds" the stitches "fast" (another word for securely). It may be worth remembering that even gemming is a "holdfast"...technically.

PS...and on edit...I might add that inseaming from the outside-in is strange, to say the least, and fraught with potential problems. Additionally, the stitches here are half again to twice as long as I would consider "best practices."

--
Edited by DWFII - 5/6/16 at 7:46am
post #1247 of 1710
Thank you. Doesn't the welt finish to early on the insole. It is quite before the waist starts. This people don't peg the sole. How are attach the sole to the insole in that particular if there is no welt?
post #1248 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by asturiano View Post

Thank you. Doesn't the welt finish to early on the insole. It is quite before the waist starts. This people don't peg the sole. How are attach the sole to the insole in that particular if there is no welt?

Well, I think the welt is just at the beginning of the waist...which, as you suggest, would probably be fine if the waist is to be pegged. But, as is, there isn't enough upper pulled over the insole to be secured by pegs.

As to how the outsole will be attached to the shoe if not by pegs...who knows?...maybe the maker is one of those people who believes that modern cements are sufficient.* The lavish use of it in the foreparts certainly suggests as much. But frankly, I suspect that's the least of the problems here.

*a belief often fostered by "huffing" too much of the fumes over the years crackup[1].gif
post #1249 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


The photos are not clear enough, nor large enough to zoom in on, to tell for sure but I am guessing that the forepart filler is neoprene. I've seen this many times and it has always been black or dark, dark charcoal grey.

I don't use tarred felt. I don't know anywhere in the world to get it. I can get tar paper but that is not the same thing. In fact, I use 100% wool felt affixed with a non-occlusive paste.

The shank filler looks too regular to be anything but a pre-made part. Again the photos don't reveal much about the material, source or even structure. Being pre-made would be even more certain if your description about it being a "wood paste" is correct. I don't like screws in the insole. Either it is long enough to be of real use in holding the filler in place...in which case any settling of the insole in the forming of a footbed raises the possibility of it poking up through the insole...or it is useless. But the placement as well as the fact that it is there, does suggest that there is no metal shank involved.

--

Thanks DW for your inputs. I am sure I will enjoy my shoes as long as the fit is good.

post #1250 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapasman View Post

Thanks DW for your inputs. I am sure I will enjoy my shoes as long as the fit is good.

Well, I could be wrong on all counts... again photos make every guess just that--a guess.

But I didn't mean to criticize your shoes...didn't even know they were yours--just offering another opinion / perspective.
post #1251 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


Well, I could be wrong on all counts... again photos make every guess just that--a guess.

But I didn't mean to criticize your shoes...didn't even know they were yours--just offering another opinion / perspective.

Of course I know, so not to worry at all!!.  We are just guessing here with those poor pics from the web (sorry I could not find better ones from this maker).  I ordered  5 month ago a pair of hand made norvevegese boots from  that maker that represents one of the best quality/price ratio to me (630 €) .  Those shoes are not mine, but I think I will receive a pair of boots with the same/similar materials and I wanted to get some inputs from you.  As said, I am sure I will enjoy my boots once I receive them as long as the fit is good.:)  Cheers.

post #1252 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapasman View Post

Of course I know, so not to worry at all!!.  We are just guessing here with those poor pics from the web (sorry I could not find better ones from this maker).  I ordered  5 month ago a pair of hand made norvevegese boots from  that maker that represents one of the best quality/price ratio to me (630 €) .  Those shoes are not mine, but I think I will receive a pair of boots with the same/similar materials and I wanted to get some inputs from you.  As said, I am sure I will enjoy my boots once I receive them as long as the fit is good.smile.gif   Cheers.

Is Enzo using taking shortcuts or using inferior materials in their handwelting technique?
post #1253 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by vmss View Post


Is Enzo using taking shortcuts or using inferior materials in their handwelting technique?

You ask me?.  I do not think so, but I am not a shoemaker so I am not qualify to answer you.  Furthemore, I do not have EB shoes yet to give you any opinion. 

post #1254 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapasman View Post

You ask me?.  I do not think so, but I am not a shoemaker so I am not qualify to answer you.  Furthemore, I do not have EB shoes yet to give you any opinion. 
I also have two pairs coming in and became curious when you started questioning their techinique and materials used.
post #1255 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by vmss View Post


Is Enzo using taking shortcuts or using inferior materials in their handwelting technique?

 

I am not a shoemaker myself, nor an expert.

But I think the question here is.....

Taking shortcuts as compared to what? Using inferior materials as compared to who?

If you are comparing their methods and materials to the best bespoke makers who stop at nothing to use the best materials and techniques, is this then a fair comparison?

Given the recent discussions on holdfasts, looking at pictures, and some personal reflection as to what's important to me, I think there is a (relatively wide) spectrum of "quality" among different handwelt makers. 

Obviously, some do it better than others. 

DW bringing up the issue of the handwelter dropping his thread, again provided more food for thought. We'd never know! Unless we saw a video of the guy working. Studying videos of other makers, I'd then realised this dropping of thread is more common than I'd thought. Does this represent best practices? Hardly, apparently. 

But the world is not the same, shoe making isn't the same, this isn't the golden age of shoemaking anymore, and certainly, finding workers capable of handwelting will probably get more difficult as time passes. 

So would I choose a pair of handwelted shoes even though it might not be sublimely done, over a pair of GYWs. Absolutely.

To a certain degree, it still boils down to economics. Enzo gives you a pair of handwelted shoes, at the price of about 470 Euros approximately. It's not a cheap pair of shoes, by any means, but neither is it a mind boggling astronomical figue.

We still have to realistic about what can be expected at that price, while also taking into context the numerous RTW GYW makers that charge many times this price. 


Edited by ThunderMarch - 5/6/16 at 10:25pm
post #1256 of 1710
Thread Starter 
The context is critical. What kind of forum is this? What is its avowed purpose? What is the focus of this thread?

Indeed, what is the point of discussion at all, if all we do is natter about things we know nothing about? I'm all for mindless chit chat...in venues where mindless chit chat is the order of the day and where it does no harm. But I think...I hope...StyleForum is about more than mindless chit chat. Mostly. Ostensibly.

Human beings make comparisons in order to survive...every minute of every day. The ability to accurately and wisely judge situations can mean the difference between life and death...even in the contemporary world. That ability--that tendency to compare and judge--filters down and colours all of our behaviour.

Several points: What distinguishes a $200.00 shoe from a $1000.00 shoe if what you can't see or know about makes no difference? The correct answer is "nothing."

What is the point of buying a $1000.00 shoe if you don't know...and don't want to know...the difference? Is it all for show? For the prestige? If that's the case, why not wear the box--everyone will know you bought expensive brand names.

So yes, comparisons (esp. informed comparisons) are fair...they are nothing less than objective analysis. The alternative is to allow the maker to do those comparisons and simple-mindedly accept their word that they've chosen the best leather or the best techniques.

What is the point of talking about economics in a thread or forum that ostensibly is focused on quality? If you want to talk about economics...there is a concept that many people on this forum...and many more out and about...can't seem to ever get their heads around--it is the idea of "enough." Now that's the real economic issue.

Of course, human beings have interests and desires that transcend or go beyond economics and "enough." But, in the end, once you start talking about those kinds of issues as if they were important in the context of "good, better, best," you lose perspective and an element of absurdity is introduced to the discussion that supersedes or obviates any other consideration. Simply because every discussion of economics inevitably has to come down to that one central idea.

But that's not what this thread is about. Implicitly, if not actually, it's not what this forum is about.

Such discussions are more appropriate in the parking lot of Walmart. Or a coupon convention.

As far as the issue of dropping threads...it is important. Again esp. in context. For me as a shoemaker--that's my focus, it always will be. "Best practices" is a significant concept in its own right simply because of what it says about the maker and his attention to detail or mindfullness. Maybe even his goals and involvement and commitment.

And it's important to the consumer for the same reason--as a illustration of what kind of care goes into an artifact that purports to be "quality" and costs like it should be quality. If the maker is not concerned about the problems associated with dirt or knots...just plain fastidious, clean work...where it cannot be seen, what kind of attention to detail does he bring to the rest of the work / shoe? And if the consumer is not concerned about those kinds of things, why pay the premium?

Why post here, for that matter?

Again...if it has not been made clear by the title and isn't otherwise evident, this thread and, in particular, my comments (since they were referenced), are about shoemaking, not the economics of shoemaking. Or if so, only peripherally.

And I am a shoemaker. If "best practices" and dropping the thread is not an appropriate consideration for this discussion and for me as a shoemaker, what is? If such considerations are not important to me, who will they be important to? And if they are not important to me as a shoemaker, why in the world would they be important to the customer? How can we ever expect anything but mediocre?

Frankly, I don't know how or why this discussion turned to a defense of EB. I don't think the person who posted the original question ever mentioned the maker. I made no such association. Even at this point I don't think the name of the maker is significant. And I, for one, appreciate the fact that it wasn't mentioned, simply because not knowing allows a certain objectivity. An objectivity that disappears the minute people decide to defend a maker or an artifact that they themselves had no part in making or creating. It all comes down, at that point, to money and whether the buyer was wise to spend that much money on something he didn't really know anything about and which in all probability exceeded his needs...mindlessly more than "enough"...and all of which was/is entirely subjective.

edited for punctuation and clarity
Edited by DWFII - 5/7/16 at 2:30pm
post #1257 of 1710
Block of text attacked.

The answer is crystal clear if you consider EB, Vass, Meermin LM as manufacturers. And they are.

And LOL @DWFII's ridiculous faulty logic again; it doesn't take an actual maker to understand and appreciate a craft.
post #1258 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

... it doesn't take an actual maker to understand and appreciate a craft.

Sorry, you're just wrong. Nobody who had mastered any craft, art, vocation, profession, or sport would ever say something like this. You don't have to feel ashamed of never having mastered anything, but you shouldn't denigrate mastery out of envy or bitterness.

I don't own any bespoke shoes, let alone have experience with making them, but I enjoy learning about them. No matter how much I learn about them from the Internet, I won't represent myself as having any expertise on them or try to educate others about them, other than referring people to threads such as this.
post #1259 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whirling View Post

Sorry, you're just wrong. Nobody who had mastered any craft, art, vocation, profession, or sport would ever say something like this. You don't have to feel ashamed of never having mastered anything, but you shouldn't denigrate mastery out of envy or bitterness.

I don't own any bespoke shoes, let alone have experience with making them, but I enjoy learning about them. No matter how much I learn about them from the Internet, I won't represent myself as having any expertise on them or try to educate others about them, other than referring people to threads such as this.

You're right.

At the same time, it does take someone who has the ability to recognize craftsmanship when they see it--independent of ill-informed internet postings and visits to factories. Or be a curious and open-minded listener. Neither of which applies in the above instance.

Just as it takes someone who has the ability to follow a train of thought and recognize and use logic, to find fault in someone else's.
post #1260 of 1710
Not sure I agree. If only a craftsman's eye can recognize or appreciate a given craft, there's probably very very few buyers.
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