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Shoemaking Techniques and Traditions--"...these foolish things..." - Page 79

post #1171 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan'l View Post

This looks really beautiful. The examples of pegged soles I've seen were always with a single row of pegs.

For my first pair of bespoke shoes, I was deliberating between welted vs. pegged soles. According to my shoemaker, pegged soles are faster to make. Any truth to this? He also said hand-welted soles feel a bit more comfortable while wearing. Not sure if I really understood him on that last point, though.

Anyways, I went with the hand-welted soles - perhaps next time I will try pegged ones.

Thank you.

No, if done correctly, pegged work is not faster...or not significantly faster, at least. Much of the same work must be done in either approach and there are some techniques that are unique to each.

That said, some makers skip or eliminate certain steps that they feel are unnecessary. Such as that extra row. Or whipping the upper to the insole.



Pegged outsoles will always be a bit stiffer to walk in even if only one row is driven. Pegs are vertical fasteners and their orientation is, by default, in opposition to the bending of the leather during walking.
post #1172 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


That said, some makers skip or eliminate certain steps that they feel are unnecessary. Such as that extra row. Or whipping the upper to the insole.


Please indulge a noob, but if I understand the above pic clearly, it shoes the upper sewn directly to the insole, which would make future replacement of the sole difficult, correct?
Quote:
Pegged outsoles will always be a bit stiffer to walk in even if only one row is driven. Pegs are vertical fasteners and their orientation is, by default, in opposition to the bending of the leather during walking.

Oh, this totally makes sense! Thank you for that. Seems like such a simple explanation, but it did not even occur to me when I pondered the differences.
post #1173 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan'l View Post

Please indulge a noob, but if I understand the above pic clearly, it shoes the upper sewn directly to the insole, which would make future replacement of the sole difficult, correct?

No worries, we were all noobs at some time.

Why would it make replacing the outsole difficult?

Truth to tell, it makes resoling easier. Simply because to replace the outsole, it (the old outsole) has to come off. That's the nature of "replacement."

If the upper is not stitched to the insole, the only possible alternatives are that it will be either loose, pasted, or cemented. In each of those cases, when the outsole is peeled off, the upper will have a tendency to peel loose with it.

That's exactly what you want to avoid. Because then you lose fit and shape and integrity...even if only marginally.
post #1174 of 1710
I was unsure of the pic you posted and played a bit of "Where's Waldo" trying to figure out if something was wrong, especially when it was prefaced by the sentence "Or whipping the upper to the insole." Sorry, I just don't understand what that means!

I think I need to do some more research about shoemaking. It seems each time I see pictures or read descriptions about the various steps, it is hard for me to visualize the exact steps of creating the holdfast, welting, etc. I wonder if anyone has ever made a time-elapsed film of the shoemaking process, complete with subtitles to describe each step. Now that would be very educational!
post #1175 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by dan'l View Post

I was unsure of the pic you posted and played a bit of "Where's Waldo" trying to figure out if something was wrong, especially when it was prefaced by the sentence "Or whipping the upper to the insole." Sorry, I just don't understand what that means!

I think I need to do some more research about shoemaking. It seems each time I see pictures or read descriptions about the various steps, it is hard for me to visualize the exact steps of creating the holdfast, welting, etc. I wonder if anyone has ever made a time-elapsed film of the shoemaking process, complete with subtitles to describe each step. Now that would be very educational!

I apologize..."whipping" is just short-hand for "whip stitched"--a simple but effective stitch in situations where welting is not required or wanted. You had it right when you said that the upper was stitched to the insole.

Of course, in the above example the upper, and upper lining (as well as the stiffeners) are pasted to each other and then pasted to the insole before the whip-stitching is begun. It's a fairly solid construct.

There are probably an infinite number of videos on YouTube depicting various techniques...some are good, some not so much (probably more of the latter by a wide margin). But some techniques go missing simply because they are too obvious, or conversely, too difficult or too Traditional and there aren't a lot of makers (esp. those enamoured with modernity and speed) conversant with strictly Traditional techniques.

I made a video some years back...when the Crispin Colloquy was new (and we didn't know whether we could access videos through the forum software)....illustrating hand welting and the rather unique series of hand movement that I was taught to tighten a stitch. I was roundly criticized (and probably rightfully so) for dropping my threads between each stitch. As I recall I did that to clear the view of extraneous wraps, etc., so as to better illustrate the technique. But, in retrospect I have to admit it was an example of one of those "not-so-much" videos.

Then too, many makers are jealous of their methods--every maker, esp. the best, has his unspoken compendium of "crans" (shoemaking tricks/secrets) that he is unwilling to share willy-nilly with the "unwashed." cool.gif

edited for punctuation and clarity
Edited by DWFII - 4/9/16 at 8:46am
post #1176 of 1710

Whip stitching vs. "French" whip stitching.  What's the difference?  The French style being tighter/more secure if both are "done properly"? And why use the "French" style if both are as secure if "done properly"?

 

Whip stitching attaching upper to insole at the heel.

 

"French" style whip stitching attaching upper to insole at the heel.

post #1177 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Whip stitching vs. "French" whip stitching.  What's the difference?  The French style being tighter/more secure if both are "done properly"? And why use the "French" style if both are as secure if "done properly"?

In the absence of someone whose answers you might like better...

In my estimation, there is no fundamental difference in terms of security or tightness or even appropriateness to purpose.

That said, when inseaming, there are two working ends of the thread that are constantly in play and used to make the stitches. The Hasluck technique continues that approach with the surplus lengths left over from inseaming--both ends are employed to make each individual stitch. When done, both ends of the thread have been forwarded to the same spot and may be easily tied off. (Or, as in the case of the photo you posted, the heel seat is sewn first and then the inseaming just picks up and continues with the two ends in the proper position to go forward.)

A simple whip stitch only uses one end...forcing the other end to be...what? cut off, knotted or, in some circumstances, used in another manner such as is illustrated in the photo below.

Ultimately, however, there is something to be said for neatness and clean work. It bespeaks an orderly mind and a precise and, maybe more importantly, an engaged approach to problems. As a maker, if I can make the work "pretty" as well as functional...even, maybe especially, where it won't be seen...well, let me put it this way--it's part and parcel of the "craftsman" mind set. That fussiness, that obsessiveness, that attention to detail.

And having said that, even a simple whip stitch can be done with grace...



--
Edited by DWFII - 4/10/16 at 6:22am
post #1178 of 1710

How this stitching(cap,vamp) do?

 

post #1179 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by medie2005 View Post

How this stitching(cap,vamp) do?

You place the toe cap over the vamp - grain to grain (face to face) - so the toe cap points in the "wrong" direction. Place a seam within the stitching allowance and fold the toe cap back, so the stitching will be underneath the toe cap and hidden from view of the finished shoe.

Same method used also for the curved 'vamp-line' seam.
post #1180 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Where will the nails go?

post #1181 of 1710

@DWFII

Earlier on in a different thread you'd mentioned the differences in a cuban heel and a tapered heel. 

I understand that a good number of RTW makers use pre-stacked heels for expediency. I am wondering, if it is a tapered heel, could it still possibly be pre-stacked, or does it have to be built layer by layer?

post #1182 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderMarch View Post

@DWFII

Earlier on in a different thread you'd mentioned the differences in a cuban heel and a tapered heel. 
I understand that a good number of RTW makers use pre-stacked heels for expediency. I am wondering, if it is a tapered heel, could it still possibly be pre-stacked, or does it have to be built layer by layer?

It could very easily be pre-stacked. Even hand stacked heels are built more or less over size and squarish and then filed or cut to shape after the fact.
post #1183 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


It could very easily be pre-stacked. Even hand stacked heels are built more or less over size and squarish and then filed or cut to shape after the fact.

 

Thanks DW !

In a finished product, would there be any way to differentiate between a pre-stacked vs hand stacked heel block?

post #1184 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderMarch View Post

Thanks DW !
In a finished product, would there be any way to differentiate between a pre-stacked vs hand stacked heel block?

Not really. You'd have to take the shoe apart to know the difference and even then...on low heels the only way to know would be the quality of the leather "lifts."
post #1185 of 1710

DW, what is your opinion about the different techniques to attach the shank (metal/wood/plastic/leather) to the insole? I have seen some makers use adhesive or any kind of shoemaker´s resin instead of doing it with the thread?. I understand that not all the HW shoemakers use the thread, intead some of them use two small screws or a pegged piece of leather on top of the shank. Thanks.

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