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Shoemaking Techniques and Traditions--"...these foolish things..." - Page 77

post #1141 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by j-mac View Post



This is how I do it, I saw it done 2 or 3 different ways during my apprenticeship and chose this method as I like the way it pulls the leather in around the seat.

That is my thinking as well.
post #1142 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by j-mac View Post



This is how I do it, I saw it done 2 or 3 different ways during my apprenticeship and chose this method as I like the way it pulls the leather in around the seat.

Let me ask you a question...no, I'm not trying to put you on the spot or challenge your choices. Your inseam job from heel to toe is unimpeachable. I ask with all sincere and due respect...

But do you think that the leather around the seat in this photo (below) is not "pulled in around the seat"? Or inadequately pulled in around the seat?

DSCF1567.JPG
post #1143 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


Let me ask you a question...no, I'm not trying to put you on the spot or challenge your choices. Your inseam job from heel to toe is unimpeachable. I ask with all sincere and due respect...

But do you think that the leather around the seat in this photo (below) is not "pulled in around the seat"? Or inadequately pulled in around the seat?

DSCF1567.JPG

 

Conversely, why not inseam the welt the same way as you do heel seat stitching if you think its as strong? Just curious.

post #1144 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

I don't doubt that...I don't doubt or question your first hand experiences. But it has never, to my knowledge, happened to a pair of heels that I built. Never.

Why do you think that is?

Step back a moment and think about this....people are so different. The stresses that they put their shoes through, and the way they wear them, are so different. How can you and so many others so blithely say "such and such is not a problem" or suggest that since you've never seen it, it can't happen? It's a foolish position to take, IMO, esp. if you don't have the first hand experience.

But again, why do you think my heels don't come off?

I'll tell you why I think they don't come off--it's because pegging is not like driving a nail. Not really. And too many makers think it is.

You have to drive more pegs than you would nails. And they have to support each other. And they have to be driven into leather that is at just the right level of temper/moisture--if the leather is too wet initially, you get loose pegs, too dry, loose pegs.

The pegs I use for stacking heels are almost one inch long. That means that each peg in each layer, penetrates three to four+ layers below it...depending on the thickness of each lift.

When I peg a waist or a full sole, I use two rows rather than one--one row is not adequate to hold the outsole in place reliably, despite what any maker (primarily Austro-Hungarian makers, AFAIK) thinks. That's not been my experience...and evidently not been the experience of all too many consumers who post here, complaining. The main connection on such work, IMO, is the all-purpose cement--the pegs are just for show.


And I peg at 10 per inch, interlocked.

I'll tell you why my heels have never come off...it's not because I'm some crazy talented maker, or never make mistakes, or know it all, or even more than my peers. Nor is it because I make shoes that no one wears anywhere but on carpets.

It's because I obsess about details like rust and wax and temper and how many pegs per inch. And even the alignment of the peg in the hole.

Heaven is in the details.





--


Fair 'nuff.....We can use the same logic here. The same reason I never get shoes that we installed flush mounted metal toe plates returned where something failed.
I've stressed this before and it bears repeating....."if done correctly".
post #1145 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

Fair 'nuff.....We can use the same logic here. The same reason I never get shoes that we installed flush mounted metal toe plates returned where something failed.
I've stressed this before and it bears repeating....."if done correctly".

I accept that. But too many conversations with you, specifically, as well as others here, leave me wondering what kind of definition you have for 'failed."

If you were taking a shoe apart that had a flush mounted toe plate and happened to see...were mindful enough to look for...holes in the inseam, but the welt seemed intact and you had no doubts that you could stitch on another outsole, would you consider that there was a problem? Would you see "failed" or just "whatever, not a problem"?

If you pull apart a shoe and see that the cork has been fugitive in the forepart, would you ask yourself "why should that be?" Or "how can the cork do its job if it doesn't stay in one place?"

If you see gemming coming loose in a one inch section, does it occur to you that it has failed? It's not just wear and tear. If it is not functioning or in exactly the same state as it was intended to be when implemented, how can it be anything other than failed?

Or do you dismiss all these things as inconsequential, simply because they don't immediately affect whether you can do the job, today?

Definitions determine standards. Dumbing them down is just excuse.

--
post #1146 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Conversely, why not inseam the welt the same way as you do heel seat stitching if you think its as strong? Just curious.

I didn't say anything about "strong" as it relates to the heel seat stitching.

I outlined some of my reasons for preferring this approach in an earlier post in this thread. Parenthetically, I also remarked that I admired the "British" technique and had it on my bucket list to try...with modifications. smile.gif

And just for the record...you can often satisfy your curiosity simply by reading for content and/or following a thread from its beginning, if curiosity is really the issue.
post #1147 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

I accept that. But too many conversations with you, specifically, as well as others here, leave me wondering what kind of definition you have for 'failed."

If you were taking a shoe apart that had a flush mounted toe plate and happened to see...were mindful enough to look for...holes in the inseam, but the welt seemed intact and you had no doubts that you could stitch on another outsole, would you consider that there was a problem? Would you see "failed" or just "whatever, not a problem"?

If you pull apart a shoe and see that the cork has been fugitive in the forepart, would you ask yourself "why should that be?" Or "how can the cork do its job if it doesn't stay in one place?"

If you see gemming coming loose in a one inch section, does it occur to you that it has failed? It's not just wear and tear. If it is not functioning or in exactly the same state as it was intended to be when implemented, how can it be anything other than failed?

Or do you dismiss all these things as inconsequential, simply because they don't immediately affect whether you can do the job, today?

Definitions determine standards. Dumbing them down is just evasion.

If a pegged heel sheared off -or- loosened to me it failed. All the other stuff you mentioned could happen with -or without metal toe plates being installed. If we happen across any of those issues we simply correct the problem. In most cases we don't even tell the customer. No big deal if done correctly.
post #1148 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whirling View Post


I think it is completely fair to ask a man how experienced he is at his trade if you are going to pay him for work. Experience counts for an awful lot.

Your lack of an answer regarding how many bespoke shoes you have bespoken is rather telling. Having no experience is not a good reason to dismiss its importance. There is no shame in having no experience, as long as one is open about it, expresses a desire to learn, and doesn't presume to teach people that which one doesn't know.

Chogall, you care a lot about footwear and you know a certain kind of information about it that you have gleaned indirectly from others, but you are just playing whisper down the lane, which is fairly inexcusable when we are so fortunate to have multiple true experts here to share their first-hand knowledge with us.

Chogall, couldn't you spend the time you currently spend here actually learning for yourself how to make shoes? I bet you would enjoy it more and learn a lot more. Alternatively, if there is some area of human endeavor with which you have first-hand experience, wouldn't you enjoy sharing your first-hand knowledge of it in the appropriate forum?

Chogall, I really do wish you the best. I am not saying you're a bad person. This is not personal in any way. I am only commenting on your participation here on this thread, which I hope is only a very small part of your life and, hence, not really representative of you.

 

I don't have time to learn making shoes.  Maybe someday I will, just like one of @DWFII's retired surgeon(?)/VC(?) student.

 

In the meanwhile you can enjoy me posting here and learn from the experts chime in regarding my questions.

post #1149 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


I didn't say anything about "strong" as it relates to the heel seat stitching.

I outlined some of my reasons for preferring this approach in an earlier post in this thread. Parenthetically, I also remarked that I admired the "British" technique and had it on my bucket list to try...with modifications. smile.gif

And just for the record...you can often satisfy your curiosity simply by reading for content and/or following a thread from its beginning, if curiosity is really the issue.

 

Maybe strong is not the right word, but jmac said he likes the way the "British" heel seat stitching pulls the leather around the insole and you prefer using the "French" way.  My question is, why not use the "French" way of doing heel seat stitching for the whole inseaming?

post #1150 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

  Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
I accept that. But too many conversations with you, specifically, as well as others here, leave me wondering what kind of definition you have for 'failed."


If you were taking a shoe apart that had a flush mounted toe plate and happened to see...were mindful enough to look for...holes in the inseam, but the welt seemed intact and you had no doubts that you could stitch on another outsole, would you consider that there was a problem? Would you see "failed" or just "whatever, not a problem"?
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

If you pull apart a shoe and see that the cork has been fugitive in the forepart, would you ask yourself "why should that be?" Or "how can the cork do its job if it doesn't stay in one place?"

If you see gemming coming loose in a one inch section, does it occur to you that it has failed? It's not just wear and tear. If it is not functioning or in exactly the same state as it was intended to be when implemented, how can it be anything other than failed?

Or do you dismiss all these things as inconsequential, simply because they don't immediately affect whether you can do the job, today?

Definitions determine standards. Dumbing them down is just excuse.

--

 

 

I've only seen one pair of hand sewn welted shoes w/ flushed metal toe plates being open; there's no damage to the inseam.  But then you probably have seen 1000x more shoes with metal toe plates opened up than I did and @Nick V. 1000x than yours.

post #1151 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

If a pegged heel sheared off -or- loosened to me it failed. All the other stuff you mentioned could happen with -or without metal toe plates being installed. If we happen across any of those issues we simply correct the problem. In most cases we don't even tell the customer. No big deal if done correctly.

Misses the point...everything is down to "if done correctly," including choosing not to do something. It's not a big deal to you because you're not a shoemaker. Can't really do anything to avoid the problems...esp. if you don't see it/define it as a problem. Plus it's your job business's to pull it together, whether it's a problem or not.
post #1152 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Maybe strong is not the right word, but jmac said he likes the way the "British" heel seat stitching pulls the leather around the insole and you prefer using the "French" way.  My question is, why not use the "French" way of doing heel seat stitching for the whole inseaming?

Problem is I'm leery of the British approach because I worry about the puckering that is created. I suspect that's all down to leatehr thicknesses and technique but i haven't yet tried it so I don't know. I also worry that making a "line" of stitches so close tot eh edge of the insole makes them vulnerable to the nails that hold the heel seat and the outsole on. Again probably just a matter of experience.

Beyond that, the inseam is a whole 'nuther ball game--from the type of stitch to the way it sucks the upper, upperlining and welt into the rebate at the feather. IMO none of that is needed or even possible in the heelseat. It's not needed because the nails or pegs hold everything together not possible because if you include the heel stiffener you get heavy puckering on top of the insole. and did I mention vulnerability to nails?...same reason I don't particularly favour flush mounted toe plates.

In the photo above (mine) the surface of the upper in the heel area is very little more than the the thickness of the upper above the surface of the insole. That leaves a flat smooth arena to mount the outsole an heel with no potential gaps underneath. I like that.

And it is what I learned and am comfortable with...just as others learned and are comfortable with the the British technique.

So there you have it (or some of it)...again. I did this once before at the beginning of this particular strand of the discussion. I didn't want to do it again because in this context it sounds too much like a comparison. And I do not wish, or have any direct intention, to criticize any other maker or techniques that I have no real or more particularly, extensive experience with.

And again, you could have gotten all this (my take) on your own, if you simply exercised enough real curiosity to read my original remarks.

But you asked. And I'm nothing if not responsive...if approached with a modicum of respect.
post #1153 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Misses the point...everything is down to "if done correctly," including choosing not to do something. It's not a big deal to you because you're not a shoemaker. Can't really do anything to avoid the problems...esp. if you don't see it/define it as a problem. Plus it's your job business's to pull it together, whether it's a problem or not.

Maybe you didn't get the answer you were looking for....
I didn't miss the point in fact I gave you an honest answer based on my experience.

I am in know way representing anyone else but myself. However, I would venture to guess that most (if no all) the other makers that have been involved in this thread would agree that you over dramatize many issues including the ones you mentioned above.. They know as well as I these major problems that you allude to are no big deal to correct.

Last, I am not interested in being dragged into a pissing match.
This is shoe-making and repair, not rocket science or brain surgery.
post #1154 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

I've only seen one pair of hand sewn welted shoes w/ flushed metal toe plates being open; there's no damage to the inseam.  But then you probably have seen 1000x more shoes with metal toe plates opened up than I did and @Nick V.
1000x than yours.

The thing is that we see what we want to see...esp. in the absence of first hand experience. and after we've done that, we interpret what we think we're seeing according to what supports what we want to believe.

And if we only rely on things told to us or what we see from a distance--without real, intimate, first hand engagement, IOW--it is almost impossible to understand or "get it right." It is and forever will be someone else's knowledge.

Beyond that, someone once said (and I ran across the same notion on Science Daily, IIRC) that, for most of us, every time we take a memory out and examine it, it changes. Only engagement and repeated first hand experience can reinforce true memory.
post #1155 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick V. View Post

Maybe you didn't get the answer you were looking for....
I didn't miss the point in fact I gave you an honest answer based on my experience.

I am in know way representing anyone else but myself. However, I would venture to guess that most (if no all) the other makers that have been involved in this thread would agree that you over dramatize many issues including the ones you mentioned above.. They know as well as I these major problems that you allude to are no big deal to correct.

Last, I am not interested in being dragged into a pissing match.
This is shoe-making and repair, not rocket science or brain surgery.

Every man should try to do the very best work he can, whether he picks up garbage or performs brain surgery. We need people to do both and want them to do their work as well as possible. In fact, I would have far more respect for the garbage man who does his job to the highest standards than I would for the brain surgeon who did his job to an "acceptable" standard and didn't aspire to doing any better.

"Good enough in most cases" makes perfect business sense...can't really fault it from that perspective. So, if you're only goal is to maximize the value of your business over the long term, going the extra mile to handle the details in the difficult cases wouldn't make sense. Of course, you will have to accept the consequences when somebody is left displeased with your work. As I mentioned above, it's far easier to say one is doing the best possible work and then cut a few corners, with the hope they won't be noticed, or not noticed too frequently, than it is to do the best possible work and be very open about the limitation in even the best possible work.

That said, if a person leaves even 1 in a 1000 people feeling as though they received bad service or as though he misled them in some way, a few of those 1 in a 1000 people will post about their experiences on review websites.
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