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Shoemaking Techniques and Traditions--"...these foolish things..." - Page 73

post #1081 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntempleman View Post

I'd imagine they would be, I've never used a last with any metal plates though so I've never had to deal with a clinched nail.


Interesting. If you're not clinching the nail, I don't see how the nail is holding any better than a peg...? The peg, at least...for all its other flaws...has a certain coefficient of friction (is that a correct phrase?) that the nail doesn't.

Unless it rusts. devil.gif
post #1082 of 1710
Here is a link from a company that advertises itself as using traditional techniques, instead of machinery. Although the techniques are not on a par with those of the bespoke makers who participate on this thread, I found the video interesting. A question would be whether it is misleading in representing traditional techniques, or whether it is, at least partially, educating the general public about the possibilities for high quality footwear?

Man vs. Machine
post #1083 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post

Interesting. If you're not clinching the nail, I don't see how the nail is holding any better than a peg...?

I never made the claim that one was any better or worse than the other, just that it's my preference.
post #1084 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whirling View Post

Here is a link from a company that advertises itself as using traditional techniques, instead of machinery. Although the techniques are not on a par with those of the bespoke makers who participate on this thread, I found the video interesting. A question would be whether it is misleading in representing traditional techniques, or whether it is, at least partially, educating the general public about the possibilities for high quality footwear?

Man vs. Machine
Those look pretty nice. Fuckin expensive tho!
post #1085 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whirling View Post

Here is a link from a company that advertises itself as using traditional techniques, instead of machinery. Although the techniques are not on a par with those of the bespoke makers who participate on this thread, I found the video interesting. A question would be whether it is misleading in representing traditional techniques, or whether it is, at least partially, educating the general public about the possibilities for high quality footwear?

Man vs. Machine

 

the video itself isn't very clear on details, but Feit makes goodyear welted shoes and some non-welted handsewns (ala moccassins). All the zen-looking imagery (old dude gently threading the welt) is mostly marketing

 

They are perhaps more 'handmade' than the glued corrected grain shoes sold by fashion houses, but I think they are trying to insinuate handwelted without actually using that construction

post #1086 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by sleepyinsanfran View Post

the video itself isn't very clear on details, but Feit makes goodyear welted shoes and some non-welted handsewns (ala moccassins). All the zen-looking imagery (old dude gently threading the welt) is mostly marketing

They are perhaps more 'handmade' than the glued corrected grain shoes sold by fashion houses, but I think they are trying to insinuate handwelted without actually using that construction
Yeah, there are pics on the site that look like they're hand welting but they don't appear to be actually inseaming!
post #1087 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ntempleman View Post

I never made the claim that one was any better or worse than the other, just that it's my preference.

No worries...
post #1088 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whirling View Post


These are the types of posts that make SF such a great place for me to visit. Thank you for taking the time to compose such a thorough response to my question.

As technology drives down the value of labor, there may be a new age of hand crafts. Once all the cars are driving themselves and supermarkets don't require any checkers, those folks will be freed up to do something that only people can do...such as make high quality bespoke footwear...at least, that is a hope of mine.

 

That's such bullshit lol.  Majority of population umemployeed and make handcrafted goods for their overlords.  That's not hope.

post #1089 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by Whirling View Post

Here is a link from a company that advertises itself as using traditional techniques, instead of machinery. Although the techniques are not on a par with those of the bespoke makers who participate on this thread, I found the video interesting. A question would be whether it is misleading in representing traditional techniques, or whether it is, at least partially, educating the general public about the possibilities for high quality footwear?

Man vs. Machine

 

Marketing.  LV, Ferragamo, and Prada all have hand sewn welting videos online but that doesn't mean all of their shoes are.

post #1090 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


Interesting. If you're not clinching the nail, I don't see how the nail is holding any better than a peg...? The peg, at least...for all its other flaws...has a certain coefficient of friction (is that a correct phrase?) that the nail doesn't.

Unless it rusts. devil.gif

 

Yes there should be a different coefficient of friction between the wooden peg and the metal nail. So that would be the only difference if the nail would not be clinched. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntempleman View Post


I never made the claim that one was any better or worse than the other, just that it's my preference.

I wonder if a maker would be willing to make two shoes that are identical but just using pegs for one and nails for the other. That could be an interesting start to a very informative experiment. 

post #1091 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mw313 View Post

Yes there should be a different coefficient of friction between the wooden peg and the metal nail. So that would be the only difference if the nail would not be clinched. 
I wonder if a maker would be willing to make two shoes that are identical but just using pegs for one and nails for the other. That could be an interesting start to a very informative experiment. 

Well, if unclinched, my experience is similar to Nicholas'--nails come out much easier than pegs(unless rusted).

Maybe too easily. It would worry me, in any case...maybe not a whole lot, but a little bit.
post #1092 of 1710
Of course, there are nails that are made of materials that won't rust, or that are very rust resistant -- brass and stainless steel are two that come to mind. I generally peg my heels, except for the last layer of leather prior to the toplift, where I use stainless steel clipped to help hold on the toplift, but I've used stainless on occasion in the past. And, brass to hold and decorate the toplift.

Can't comment of the longevity of any of these.
post #1093 of 1710
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by shoefan View Post

Of course, there are nails that are made of materials that won't rust, or that are very rust resistant -- brass and stainless steel are two that come to mind. I generally peg my heels, except for the last layer of leather prior to the toplift, where I use stainless steel clipped to help hold on the topflight, but I've used stainless on occasion in the past. And, brass to hold and decorate the toplift.

Can't comment of the longevity of any of these.

I use brass myself for the toplift (in fact, you yourself gave me the tip that made all the difference in using them) but they are soft and they are expensive. I also use stainless steel brads for lasting. Again more expensive than iron.

Brass nails are almost out of the question for mounting heels stacks unless you build them one lift at a time...which again gets expensive. Stainless would be ideal but I suspect the friction coefficient is even less than iron....suggesting that clinching might be critical. There are "ring nails" (iron) that would be good if clinching is not wanted. I could see them being very strong and very secure.

My only question is: what do we want in a vertical fastener? Easy to remove or security in attachment? For me, the best all around answer is pegs. But , with all my experience (with pegs) I'll be the first to admit that neither nails or pegs is really ideal.
post #1094 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


Well, if unclinched, my experience is similar to Nicholas'--nails come out much easier than pegs(unless rusted).

Maybe too easily. It would worry me, in any case...maybe not a whole lot, but a little bit.

yes that makes perfect sense. They need to last in the leather for a long time with heavy wear but need to be easy enough to remove for the resoling too. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shoefan View Post

Of course, there are nails that are made of materials that won't rust, or that are very rust resistant -- brass and stainless steel are two that come to mind. I generally peg my heels, except for the last layer of leather prior to the toplift, where I use stainless steel clipped to help hold on the toplift, but I've used stainless on occasion in the past. And, brass to hold and decorate the toplift.

Can't comment of the longevity of any of these.

 

That makes sense to be resistant to the rust and probably could be used in a variety of ways based on the specific need as you guys have said. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DWFII View Post


I use brass myself for the toplift (in fact, you yourself gave me the tip that made all the difference in using them) but they are soft and they are expensive. I also use stainless steel brads for lasting. Again more expensive than iron.

Brass nails are almost out of the question for mounting heels stacks unless you build them one lift at a time...which again gets expensive. Stainless would be ideal but I suspect the friction coefficient is even less than iron....suggesting that clinching might be critical. There are "ring nails" (iron) that would be good if clinching is not wanted. I could see them being very strong and very secure.

My only question is: what do we want in a vertical fastener? Easy to remove or security in attachment? For me, the best all around answer is pegs. But , with all my experience (with pegs) I'll be the first to admit that neither nails or pegs is really ideal.

makes sense. 

 

i agree that is the tough question because i guess in people who have many shoes and they last for many years before needing a resole, it makes more sense to have security in attachment over being easy to remove. 

 

in people who only have a couple pairs and plan to have many resoles over the life of the shoe, it makes sense to worry more about the ease to remove and at least a moderate security in attachment. 

 

I wonder if a testing could be completed to compare them all and then create a guideline for makers to decide which method of attachment is best based on the clients lifestyle and shoe wear situation. 

post #1095 of 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by chogall View Post

That's such bullshit lol.  Majority of population umemployeed and make handcrafted goods for their overlords.  That's not hope.

Although you are certainly not the only person to use language such as "bullshit," I would appreciate it if you don't direct it at me. It is fine that you vehemently disagree with me, but I really do feel that this would be a better forum if we all avoided crude language. If I have ever used crude language toward you, I apologize sincerely.

I am not some huge fan of complete free-market capitalism, sometimes it doesn't yield the best outcome for society. That said, I know a lot of well-intentioned regulations have created more problems than they solved.

Whether we like it or not, technology will make most the jobs of today obsolete sooner or later. Again, I am not saying this is a good thing; I just predict that to be the case. Although some people will be able to get jobs as high-end software architects, corporate lawyers, and such, there won't be enough of those jobs to go around. Plus, some people just don't have what it takes to do that kind of work. So, what will all those good, decent people do, when robots are cleaning hotel rooms, driving cars, and picking vegetables in the field? I assert that making high-quality products with their hands, providing the human touch, will be a reasonable option for a small number of them. Of course, a lot of people won't be good at that either, so they better be darn friendly and congenial, because I don't know what they're going to do other than work as servants for the aforementioned folk. Well, I guess some could be teachers. smile.gif (No, seriously, teaching is one of the most noble professions, so please don't take my joke that way.)
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