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Barry Bonds - Page 8

post #106 of 372
I think Bonds deserves to go to the Hall of Fame. By all accounts, he's a jerk (and, sorry, saying that he's a nicer guy than Jeff Kent doesn't really carry much weight with me). However, I'm sure there are lots of jerks in the Hall (Ty Cobb probably leads the list, and I don't think anyone would argue he shouldn't be there). Did Bonds use steroids? Of course, but many other players (hitters and pitchers) were using them at the same time. Any average Joe could follow the exact same course of training and supplements that Bonds did, and they wouldn't even come close to being able to do what he did. The same can be said for the great majority of professional, major league baseball players. In fact, a lot of them probably did (and perhaps they still do). Still, Bonds stood head and shoulders above a pretty impressive crowd.

I don't know that the use of steroids is any better or worse than Gaylord Perry's (a Hall of Famer) spit ball or Bobby Thompson's (stolen sign) shot heard 'round the world.

You can go through every era in baseball, look at the accomplishments made during that era, and say, "well, he might not have done that if..." This could be the time before integration, the dead ball era, the time when pitching mounds were higher than they are now, etc.

The fact of the matter is that Bonds is one of the greatest baseball players of all time. I'm not going to argue that he is the best, or even in the top five, because there are always arguments for and against. However, the idea that he shouldn't go into the Hall is laughable, especially since baseball itself created the environment that allowed him to do what he did. I think the same can be said for Mark McGwire, Sammy Sosa, Raphael Palmeiro, and perhaps even Jose Canseco (though he is a borderline case, to be sure).

Would I ultimately feel better if someone other than Bonds held the home run record? Probably, but it is what it is.
post #107 of 372
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gorgekko View Post
Why are you betting anything? Bonds admitted under oath to a grand jury that he used the cream and the clear. Case closed.

If it was that easy then the grand jury would've indicted him already, before he had a chance to break the record. They've seen all the evidence. No-one else has, not even the two journalists who got the scoop on the leak. Yet they haven't pulled the trigger. That should give everyone pause.
post #108 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by hchamp View Post
If it was that easy then the grand jury would've indicted him already, before he had a chance to break the record. They've seen all the evidence. No-one else has, not even the two journalists who got the scoop on the leak. Yet they haven't pulled the trigger. That should give everyone pause.

his gigantic juice head should give you pause.

no one has answered my question: what was hank aaron on?
post #109 of 372
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by iammatt View Post
OBP may not be the sexiest statistic in baseball, but it is one of the most telling and it is, and has always been, the difference between Griffey and Bonds. Griffey always struck out too much and walked too little. He was also not as good a baserunner as Bonds was. Defensively he was awesome, but offensively not quite in Bond's league even pre-steroids.

+755

This goes for not just Griffey but for just about everyone else. Here are the career base-on-balls and at-bats stats for these guys.

Aaron - 1402, 12364
Mays - 1464, 10881
Ruth - 2062, 8398
Bonds - 2539, 9768

679 of Bonds' walks were intentional. And this doesn't count the bbs that are intentional in fact if not in name. No-one else is even close in this category. Aaron is second at 293.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...B_career.shtml

If Barry had anywhere near as many at-bats and good pitches to hit as Aaron, I believe he would be the homerun king with or w/o steroids.
post #110 of 372
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by matadorpoeta View Post
his gigantic juice head should give you pause.


The grand jury has seen all the evidence. We haven't. They haven't concluded that the evidence is conclusive enough to indict Bonds. So why should we be more certain than them?
post #111 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by matadorpoeta View Post
no one has answered my question: what was hank aaron on?

He was on base, likely second or third.
post #112 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brad View Post
He was on base, likely second or third.

Actually, not really that often.
post #113 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by iammatt View Post

Well, don't I feel like a boob. I'd never looked at his OBP before. I just assumed that the career leader in extra-base hits and total bases would have been on base quite a bit.
Lenny Dykstra, Chuck Knoblauch, Brian Giles, and David Ortiz are all better offensive players than Hank.
post #114 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by hchamp View Post
The grand jury has seen all the evidence. We haven't. They haven't concluded that the evidence is conclusive enough to indict Bonds. So why should we be more certain than them?

An indictment may be imminent.
post #115 of 372
BTW, what's with the body armor. It's a little discussed advantage that Bonds has over every player in MLB, past and present. It allows him to crowd the plate with impunity. Why has he been allowed to wear it for years?


post #116 of 372
Interesting story over at ESPN wondering how Hank Aaron would fare today. They conclude he would have hit more home runs. They also say Bonds' late career home run surge mirrors one that Aaron had near the end of his career.
post #117 of 372
I don't know what players took before my time, nor do I think it really matters. Players shouldn't take illegal body-altering substances, period. Whether people in the past have done it or not is irrelevant, I care about who's playing now. In my book, Bonds and the others are cheaters and don't have anything but my disdain.
post #118 of 372
Quote:
BTW, what's with the body armor. It's a little discussed advantage that Bonds has over every player in MLB, past and present. It allows him to crowd the plate with impunity. Why has he been allowed to wear it for years?

I think anyone who wants to use it can.

Quote:
Well, don't I feel like a boob. I'd never looked at his OBP before. I just assumed that the career leader in extra-base hits and total bases would have been on base quite a bit.
Lenny Dykstra, Chuck Knoblauch, Brian Giles, and David Ortiz are all better offensive players than Hank.

Wow- I never knew Helton was 10th...
post #119 of 372
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomasso View Post
BTW, what's with the body armor. It's a little discussed advantage that Bonds has over every player in MLB, past and present. It allows him to crowd the plate with impunity. Why has he been allowed to wear it for years?

Not so much "why has he been allowed to wear it," as "why aren't pitchers brushing him back a lot more often?"

A recent interview on NPR (I think) was discussing the change in the game w/r/t pitching: it used to be that pitchers would brush crowders back to establish their domain over the plate, and it was simply part of the game; but now, even coming close to a player empties the dugout.

I never really believed that pitchers would stop pitching to him at 754, but I know I wouldn't want to be the pitcher when he hit 756, so I'd probably walk or hit him.

That Bonds is talented is beyond argument: his hitting, even before the steriods, was indisputably hall of fame material, and although the steroids (allegedly) helped with recovery and probably power, his eye is incredible. His fielding was also very, very good. And what do you do about the record without an expulsion or indictment? Everyone knows the 1919 World Series was rigged, but it's still a win in the books for the Reds. Same with Sosa's and McGwire's (and others')recorded stats. The irony is that much of this controversy might not exist if Bonds hadn't been such a jerk his entire career: people were willing to cut Sosa a lot of slack because he appreciated the fans. If Bonds--like Kareem--had had a point at which he realized the fans really mattered and expressed his heartfelt appreciation, then attitudes might begin to change.
post #120 of 372
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tomasso View Post
An indictment may be imminent.

They've been saying this ever since they busted BALCO four years ago. My guess is the paper trail doesn't lead to Barry. They need someone to step up and say "I gave Barry steroids, he knew what he was taking, and I saw him take it." But Greg Anderson, his trainer, won't do this. And so the search goes on for someone who will.
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