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post #1 of 15
Thread Starter 
Very sad, IMO. Moron taking out a 13 million dollar car in rain and pushing it..

I remember once at Lime Rock, it was just sprinkling rain, and the vintage cars were spinning out all over the place, and thank goodness, they cut the race short.

It's not just another asset, it's a piece of history.

post #2 of 15
looks like only bruised metal sucker should be up and running quickly. Cars are meant to be driven, the faster the better, right?

!luc
post #3 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Luc-Emmanuel View Post
looks like only bruised metal sucker should be up and running quickly. Cars are meant to be driven, the faster the better, right?

!luc

You think so? What if that's original sheet metal that now has to be replaced? Part of the car is gone forever.

It's an interesting discussion to have. By and large, I think people's personal possessions are theirs and they can do what they want with them. If someone wants to melt his car down, he can.

BUT, as a society, we don't feel that's absolute. That's why, with buildings, we give properties "landmark status," so people can't just tear down historically significant structures that they own. In England the Grade I, Grade II, and Grade II* listing system for historically significant buildings and homes is even more extensive.

Here, certainly, there is no law against driving any car pedal to the metal. But, morally, I think any owner of important antiques, art, etc., has to think of himself as a caretaker. No, we aren't going to fine a guy for burning his Picasso like we are for tearing down his Grade I listed house. But as a moral matter I think people should be responsible for taking care of their important possessions and violate a moral duty to the rest of the world not to be negligent in their ownership. In my opinion, that means not pushing a hugely significant car in the rain.
post #4 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by zjpj83 View Post
You think so? What if that's original sheet metal that now has to be replaced? Part of the car is gone forever. It's an interesting discussion to have. By and large, I think people's personal possessions are theirs and they can do what they want with them. If someone wants to melt his car down, he can. BUT, as a society, we don't feel that's absolute. That's why, with buildings, we give properties "landmark status," so people can't just tear down historically significant structures that they own. In England the Grade I, Grade II, and Grade II* listing system for historically significant buildings and homes is even more extensive. Here, certainly, there is no law against driving any car pedal to the metal. But, morally, I think any owner of important antiques, art, etc., has to think of himself as a caretaker. No, we aren't going to fine a guy for burning his Picasso like we are for tearing down his Grade I listed house. But as a moral matter I think people should be responsible for taking care of their important possessions and violate a moral duty to the rest of the world not to be negligent in their ownership. In my opinion, that means not pushing a hugely significant car in the rain.
It doesn't seem like a good idea to disable some of the privilege of ownership based on some minor infraction like a fender bender. This Maserati on another thread has been acclaimed as a great beauty, but has been used for what it was built for, racing. In addition,another issue, the Maser isn't original, it's rebodied.
LL
post #5 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by caelte View Post
It doesn't seem like a good idea to disable some of the privilege of ownership based on some minor infraction like a fender bender.
This Maserati on another thread has been acclaimed as a great beauty, but has been used for what it was built for, racing.
In addition,another issue, the Maser isn't original, it's rebodied.

Unfortunately, this isn't a minor infraction like a fender bender. It will be repaired but it will never be the same. The chassis is very fragile and once bent is VERY hard to repair and will require new tubes. If the hit traveled across the axle, and it looks like it did, the gearbox is gone and that's the original gear box that raced in the day. It may have cracked the bell housing and even the block.

That car is a piece of history that belongs to all of us.
post #6 of 15
Interesting discussion and as much of a car freak as I am, I am on the fence with this one. Yes, the guy was pretty dumb for driving his car hard in the rain, I think that would hold true regardless if he was driving a Honda Civic or a $13 million Ferrari, however I don't think he owes the world anything. If it was destroyed silently tomorrow no one would probably know, few would care, and it doesn't tarnish it's legacy or take away the history and photos of the car. Hell animal species go extinct many times of the year and no one even bats an eye and that is our planet, not just a mechanical object that if one really wanted to could be recreated.
post #7 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by visionology View Post
Interesting discussion and as much of a car freak as I am, I am on the fence with this one.

Yes, the guy was pretty dumb for driving his car hard in the rain, I think that would hold true regardless if he was driving a Honda Civic or a $13 million Ferrari, however I don't think he owes the world anything.

If it was destroyed silently tomorrow no one would probably know, few would care, and it doesn't tarnish it's legacy or take away the history and photos of the car. Hell animal species go extinct many times of the year and no one even bats an eye and that is our planet, not just a mechanical object that if one really wanted to could be recreated.

In as much as I love cars, especially vintage cars like this one, there are far more important things. At the same time, if I owned a 250GTO or a 250 TR, I would not merely garage them in a marble museum and leave them there to rot. I would take them out on the road; after all, they are rolling pieces of sculpture. They are cars, and cars are made to be driven. But, I wouldn't drive them recklessly...and this was reckless.

Jon.
post #8 of 15
Most people who restore such cars rarely drive them.
post #9 of 15
Better a historic Ferrari raced and damaged, than never raced at all. Enzo would approve.
post #10 of 15
Did this happen in a race or on the road?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jodum5 View Post
Better a historic Ferrari raced and damaged, than never raced at all. Enzo would approve.

+1

The car was damaged while it was out doing what it's meant to do. I think that's much better than preserving it in mothballs in a museum.

By the way, the Goodwood Revival meeting is a great opportunity to see these cars out on the racetrack. It's interesting to see some of the owners driving them really cautiously and other owners really thrashing them round the track.
post #11 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jodum5 View Post
Better a historic Ferrari raced and damaged, than never raced at all. Enzo would approve.

I read that a lot of those historical race cars were simply taken apart after they returned to Ferrari.
post #12 of 15
I'm sad it was wrecked, but I'm glad he's driving it. I love vintage racing and am grateful for the guys with enough money and balls to race 13 million dollar cars so guys like me can watch and enjoy them.

That car is no doubt already at a restoration shop somewhere, and will be back in action before too long. I've seen vintage cars beat up much more than that that were fixed up good as new.

Any vintage car with a significant racing history likely has gone through several engines and bunches of body panels, so the fact that some of the original parts might have to be replaced doesn't bother me.

I understand the argument about owners of significant historical pieces being stewards for the next generation. However, I respect people who own unique pieces of art that loan them to museums for all to see and appreciate rather than keeping the art in a vault somewhere.

Folks who drive vintage cars allow us to view those cars as they were meant to be viewed, (on the track) and this allows the rest of us to appreciate them all the more.
post #13 of 15
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kai View Post
I'm sad it was wrecked, but I'm glad he's driving it. I love vintage racing and am grateful for the guys with enough money and balls to race 13 million dollar cars so guys like me can watch and enjoy them.

That car is no doubt already at a restoration shop somewhere, and will be back in action before too long. I've seen vintage cars beat up much more than that that were fixed up good as new.

Any vintage car with a significant racing history likely has gone through several engines and bunches of body panels, so the fact that some of the original parts might have to be replaced doesn't bother me.

I understand the argument about owners of significant historical pieces being stewards for the next generation. However, I respect people who own unique pieces of art that loan them to museums for all to see and appreciate rather than keeping the art in a vault somewhere.

Folks who drive vintage cars allow us to view those cars as they were meant to be viewed, (on the track) and this allows the rest of us to appreciate them all the more.
Kai, I know you track your car, and I appreciate your perspective. However, just as there is a middle-road between hanging art in a museum for everybody to see and keeping it in a vault for nobody to see, so too is there a middle-road in between keeping a car stored in a garage and driving it pedal to the metal.

In my opinion, the suggestion by many here, "Great - this is how the car is meant to be driven, and the owner is using the car in the way it was designed to perform" fails.

Let me ask this. Paintings were made to be looked at and enjoyed. If someone acquired the Mona Lisa and would most enjoy it hanging it his office, where he spends almost all his time and gets all the sun in his house, would you be ok with him hanging the painting right in the sun? It's going to fade and ruin it. But he's going to be enjoying it while it's hanging there.

The same issue applies here. If the original gear box case is cracked, it can't be restored. It can be re-manufactured but the one that ran at Le Mans and finished third at Daytona, and has the original stamps to prove it, is gone for ever.

The problem with the argument that vintage cars should be driven balls-to-the-wall is that it is self-defeating.

We all agree that these cars were meant to be driven. The problem with concluding that as a result they should be driven 9/10 or 10/10 in competition is that this significantly increases the chances of severe damage or complete destruction. This means that nobody in the future will be able to enjoy the car as it was intended. If your use of an item destroys other people's future use of that item, then your use defeats the very lofty purposes that you are claiming to pursue, because it renders the item unable to be used as it was intended.

The point is that enjoying and driving a car does not mean driving it 10/10th any more than enjoying a painting means hanging it in the sun. There are other ways to enjoy a historically significant item responsibly without significantly endangering the item's use for others in the future. As a result, I believe some responsibility comes with ownership to keep these things around for other people to enjoy. You can still enjoy the car and drive it hard while achieving that.
post #14 of 15
It hurts to look at such a thing of beauty being twisted up like that. However, I am leaning toward the camp that says cars like these are meant to be driven hard. It has a significant historical value, and certainly irreplaceable. With that said, this is just one of the many battle scars that serve to build character. If this car is in flawless condition, just as on the day that it rolled of the factory floor, it certainly wouldn't garner the same level of respect that it has. I say fix it up and keep it alive racing.
post #15 of 15
Quote:
Originally Posted by zjpj83 View Post
We all agree that these cars were meant to be driven. The problem with concluding that as a result they should be driven 9/10 or 10/10 in competition is that this significantly increases the chances of severe damage or complete destruction. This means that nobody in the future will be able to enjoy the car as it was intended. If your use of an item destroys other people's future use of that item, then your use defeats the very lofty purposes that you are claiming to pursue, because it renders the item unable to be used as it was intended.

The point is that enjoying and driving a car does not mean driving it 10/10th any more than enjoying a painting means hanging it in the sun. There are other ways to enjoy a historically significant item responsibly without significantly endangering the item's use for others in the future. As a result, I believe some responsibility comes with ownership to keep these things around for other people to enjoy. You can still enjoy the car and drive it hard while achieving that.

You're right. Many folks who race their cars don't drive them but use ex-professionals to drive them at the races. You hardly ever see these guys ball up a car.

The trouble (or fun) starts when the owners drive the cars themselves. Think about it. You're wealthy and successful enough to own a $13 million car. Even if you've promised yourself that you are only going to drive the car at 7/10ths, things start to change a bit when that nasy Porsche begins haunting your bumper. What do you do? Give the Porsche a "point by?" I'm guessing if you're the kind of type AAA personality that has achieved enough in your life that you can afford a vintage Ferrari race car, that you step it up a tenth or so rather than let some bastard in a Porsche pass you.

I've seen some vintage racing that was every bit as competitive as any professional race. They all start out as "gentlemanly" races, but often the egos take over and they end up about as genteel as a knife fight. Makes for some pretty exciting racing.

It's irresponsible, but sure a lot of fun to watch.
If I ever get the $$ to buy a Shelby Daytona Coupe, I'll track it for sure at 7/10 of course (unless some guy in a Corvette tries to pass me.)
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