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HOF: What Are You Wearing Right Now - Part IV (starting May 2014) - Page 2271

post #34051 of 43836
Quote:
Originally Posted by Claghorn View Post


I think because the "mentor" thing is often in the context of iGents learning to dress from the internet (like me). I don't see the difference between IRL and online for such things, but generally I hear people talk about their father or uncle teaching them what is proper as if that influence makes them better dressed.

For a good and nuanced counterpoint, I believe @Academic2 has spoken on this topic.
I am not sure how that is relevant, unless you are (correctly) suggesting that people you know personally are more familiar with your environment and can then give you better advice for dressing appropriately within that environment. Though in that case, it is about choice (you should want to look like this) rather than execution (this is how you look like this).

But in general, environment and context matters a lot less now, and I think that's by and large for the better.

A tangent:

This morning, as I was parking my car, I saw a couple leaving Starbucks and walking toward their car. Guy, 50s, was wearing flip flops and an old, stretched polo and opened the door of his mid 2000s sedan for his wife as if it were the most natural thing in the world.

There are some elements of the "old way" that shouldn't be lost, and for whatever reason, fashion choices seem to be caught up with all that. Men wearing suits to work. That sort of thing.

Or like formalwear.

Don't get me wrong, if the musicians at the opera feel that it is disrespectful for people to be wearing at tshirt under a jacket at the opera, then it is disrespectful. But at the same time, I have a hard time imagining them feeling disrespected if I show up in a navy suit, even without a tie. I know nobody was bemoaning this, but I have seen tears of frustration shed over the death of formal wear.

And at some point, opera singers won't feel at all disrespected by a guy in the front row in a hoody and jeans. I think that'll be great. Democratize the opera.

How would envirionment not be relevant when discussing learned behavior?   

post #34052 of 43836
Thread Starter 
In the case of clothing, context is becoming increasingly less important. This is true both as the environment matters less in what we wear and as the nuances which in part define different environments, nuances that an in person mentor figure can understand but that will be less accessible to others external to that environment, fade away.

Will it ever become completely irrelevant? Probably not, though I hope one day it is appropriate to wear a dashiki in a New York boardroom (I just feel one's fashion choices shouldn't matter*). But it certainly matters a lot less in the context of clothing than it did fifty years ago or even fifteen.

* provided people practice good hygiene, are generally respectful, and behave appropriately . And while all these things, like dress,are absolutely context dependent, the standards for these have not shifted as much as the standards of clothing. When those standards do shift, that change should be weighted against something other than past tradition, like practicality. So though I think that ties may be going to way of the dodo, and that's totally fine, that we seem to think it's okay to be texting during meetings or classes, which is disruptive and inefficient, is not okay, and I would absolutely be critical of abandoning the norm which holds this to be inappropriate.
post #34053 of 43836
Right. In the context of an opera, would you rather be sitting next to the student wearing jeans and a t-shirt who is totally engrossed in the performance, or the well dressed couple whispering to each other, unwrapping candies, rustling programs, etc.?
post #34054 of 43836
Quote:
Originally Posted by Van Veen View Post

Right. In the context of an opera, would you rather be sitting next to the student wearing jeans and a t-shirt who is totally engrossed in the performance, or the well dressed couple whispering to each other, unwrapping candies, rustling programs, etc.?


If anyone's ever seen Wagner performed, they'll know that both the unwashed nerd in the Siegfried T-shirt and the bored, well-dressed couple looking furtively at their phones are both equally present and equally obnoxious.

post #34055 of 43836
Quote:
Originally Posted by Claghorn View Post

Having a personal (mentor, teacher, relative, etc) influence is overrated; at least, it's something I often see mentioned as contributing to some perceived downfall of men's fashion.

But having a few exemplars is important. At least, it was for me.


Not sure I agree on this @Claghorn. Based on my experience a knowledgeable mentor can have a significant positive effect.

 

So much of this is personal background and upbringing.  For example, my dad was a poor kid from LA who went to Andover on financial aid and was treated like scum (this was in the early 60s, when kids who went to Andover were taught by their parents that kids on financial aid were 2nd class citizens).  So when he came back to California, he associated wearing a coat and tie with that experience, and combined with starting a software company, I think i saw him in a suit once in my life.  He also passed away when i was relatively young, so his influence in teaching me about professional dress was muted and I had no example.  I started my career in San Francisco, an acknowledged bastion of informality.  So it wasn't until moving to the Northeast and rising to a certain level professionally that I realized the importance of dressing well and then became comfortable enough to explore and express a style that resonated with me.  I still need the help of this forum and members to do that, for which I am very grateful.

 

I'll also say to new-ish posters like @blekit, when I first joined I didn't appreciate the rationale for no grey jacket navy pants, and no navy pants in general. There are probably a list of a half dozen topics that are just SF mantra that you won't change and will save yourself aggravation by just accepting and not fighting, whether you ultimately see it the same way or not.  Navy odd pants is probably top of list and one most new posters grapple with.  I don't necessarily advocate for all of these, so don't take it that way, but one must understand them to be a knowledgeable poster here. I'd also use some older, no longer active threads as great resources for understanding some of these "SF-dogmas" and as a general great resource for learning:

 

My list of dogmas:

1) Northern lights in general, and navy pants, grey SC in specificity

2) Related - charcoal pants - "there is always a better choice"

3) Yellow ties are punishable by stoning

4) Loafers don't go with a suit

 

There is a longer list, much of it quite valid having to do with congruity of formality and related city/country clashes.  I recommend reading all of the following from the beginning to the end.

 

Read

http://web.archive.org/web/20120711003637/http://www.styleforum.net/t/287922/practical-thoughts-on-coherent-combinations-for-beginners

http://www.styleforum.net/t/309586/whnay-s-good-taste-thread/0_30

http://www.styleforum.net/t/517882/ten-ties-five-jackets-10-5-thread/0_30

http://www.styleforum.net/t/428478/classic-menswear-lounge/0_30

http://www.styleforum.net/t/476811/urbancompositionss-menswear-compilation/0_30

http://www.styleforum.net/t/320204/levels-of-formality/0_30

http://www.styleforum.net/t/309783/if-you-do-not-own-the-following-things-you-are-not-well-dressed/0_30

http://www.styleforum.net/t/381083/waywrn-composite-25-thumb-minimum/0_30

post #34056 of 43836

I can understand the idea that navy trews/grey SC are not traditional, but the idea that the combo is wrong and/or simply doesn't look good is plain silly.

 

I totally dig that it isn't conventional, but there is no other way to seriously argue it looks bad. God forbid someone focus on your pants before my sport coat :butbut:

post #34057 of 43836

 

post #34058 of 43836

I was going to mention @gdl203 as being the camp of accepting navy trousers....

post #34059 of 43836
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericgereghty View Post
 

the idea that the combo is wrong and/or simply doesn't look good is plain silly.

 

No one was saying this, though. :confused:

post #34060 of 43836
Quote:
Originally Posted by WillingToLearn View Post
 

I was going to mention @gdl203 as being the camp of accepting navy trousers....

 

Well, I do have functioning eyes and what they see can sometimes override all the pseudo-rules that the same eyes have read at one point.

 

The navy blazer and grey pants look that SF sophomores and juniors are so enamored with isn't any less fool-proof or easier to achieve than the reverse combo that is so vilified.  In fact, most executions of it vary from dreadful to meh.   Only rarely does it look great or inspired, even though it is deemed as "easy" or "versatile."  

 

Telling people that they have much to learn because they are considering wearing a grey jacket or navy trousers is ironic at best, but mostly counter-effective.  It's like people reposting hoaxes on Facebook thinking they're providing a public service.

 

I just wish that SF moved back from the overload of over-analysis and rule-making that seems to have taken a grasp on it in the last few years.  Before that, we had the opposite for a while with a good amount of poor taste choices under the guise of rule-breaking.   I guess there's some sort of pendulum there.

post #34061 of 43836

Hoping my post wasn't read as being anti-navy, just anti-beating-your-head-against-the-SF-wall on the topic. 

 

http://www.styleforum.net/t/309241/non-rule-rules/0_30

 

post #34062 of 43836

@Caustic Man definitely the way I read the last few pages. Admittedly, "rarely, if ever" isn't never, but it's not far off.

 

@WillingToLearn what is the fabric of that SC? Looks awesome.

post #34063 of 43836
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericgereghty View Post
 

@Caustic Man definitely the way I read the last few pages. Admittedly, "rarely, if ever" isn't never, but it's not far off.

 

I saw one person say  "almost never" but most of the people talking about it, including myself, were simply saying it's not something that is often done well. I didn't see one mention of it being "wrong" or looking bad in all cases.

post #34064 of 43836
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caustic Man View Post
 

 

I saw one person say  "almost never" but most of the people talking about it, including myself, were simply saying it's not something that is often done well. I didn't see one mention of it being "wrong" or looking bad in all cases.

This is what I don't agree with. I think this is a mindset borne out of, as Pliny said, its lack on tradition. To me, assuming the actual fit is reasonably good, it looks plenty good, and does so without much effort.

 

The only facet I could really accept is that if the fit is crap, the pants will look like crap...which is the same view I'd hold for any light grey pants as well.

post #34065 of 43836
Looking good @Theoprof. That collar choice suits you well.
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