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HOF: What Are You Wearing Right Now - Part IV (starting May 2014) - Page 2057

post #30841 of 43869
Quote:
Originally Posted by YRR92 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pliny View Post

ank you, I do. :) 

You're one of the most knowledgeable posters here, so why u post this sort of fit is beyond me. 

Thanks! That's quite a compliment. I think if you knew me beyond SF you'd at least get why I wear things like this, though why I post them might still be a different story.

 

 

 

 

it was meant to be.  you have demonstrated this often

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiplomaticTies View Post:

 

I agree with most of what you wrote but you also walk right into what I think is one of the main problems: there are no fixed principles of dress. Some people here write comments like they were dishing out scientific truths, where there are no such truths to be had. What we have (at best) is experience which can lead to good advice. It is also good to have someone from outside who can notice things you don't notice yourself. That kind of advice is the reason I post. But that's as far as it goes. Someone telling me that a certain look doesn't really work and who also can back that up with a few good arguments and observations, that's really valuable. Someone saying that you are plain wrong in doing a certain thing, that's neither helpful nor true. Just by reading posts in this forum for a couple of months I have already noticed that there are fundamentally different views on fit, especially between the americans and the europeans on this forum. That's a question of taste, tradition and fashion, not subject to any fixed principles.

 

I also think we should be careful to assume that people who are new to this forum are necessarily new to menswear. I'm not saying that is what you write, but from some of the comments in this forum I would certainly draw that conclusion.

 

 

Sacrilege.  Also wrong.  DT  I can think of dozens of principles off the cuff, and there are literally hundreds if not thousands of 'rules' or cultural conventions.  So objective judgement is possible, and necessary imo.  Nothing is more pernicious than ' Well I like it, and that's just your opinion'.

post #30842 of 43869
I'm actually okay with "This is my personal style" as a rationale. But not as an argument.
post #30843 of 43869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pliny View Post
 

 

 

it was meant to be.  you have demonstrated this often

 

 

 

Sacrilege.  Also wrong.  DT  I can think of dozens of principles off the cuff, and there are literally hundreds if not thousands of 'rules' or cultural conventions.  So objective judgement is possible, and necessary imo.  Nothing is more pernicious than ' Well I like it, and that's just your opinion'.

 

That's just hairsplitting. Yes, of course there are cultural conventions. Some of them applicable to menswear too. We dont walk around with cashmere jackets and bermudas. At least not in public (unless you're Thom Browne). But there are also thousands and thousands of cultural conventions that are not applicable anymore. Nobody would refrain from wearing brown in town today. My point is that conventions change. Width of lapels, shirt collar and tie should match. But I am sure that someone somewhere put a fit together when it actually worked to mix. 

 

Yes, complete relativism is pernicious. But pretending that there are absolute truths about menswear, and that there are people in this forum that actually command all these "truths", is presumptuous.

post #30844 of 43869
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiplomaticTies View Post
 

 

That's just hairsplitting. Yes, of course there are cultural conventions. Some of them applicable to menswear too. We dont walk around with cashmere jackets and bermudas. At least not in public (unless you're Thom Browne). But there are also thousands and thousands of cultural conventions that are not applicable anymore. Nobody would refrain from wearing brown in town today. My point is that conventions change. Width of lapels, shirt collar and tie should match. But I am sure that someone somewhere put a fit together when it actually worked to mix. 

 

Yes, complete relativism is pernicious. But pretending that there are absolute truths about menswear, and that there are people in this forum that actually command all these "truths", is presumptuous.

 

I should also add that, if you read my latest posts, I don't advocate that cultural conventions and what Academic2 refers to as "principles of dress" should be discarded completely. We all use them every day. And I certainly do not argue that personal taste should be the only reference. But I do argue that one should be careful in dealing with absolutes because principles and conventions change. One should be especially careful when these principles are used to hit people over the head with. Half the peacocks at Pitti wear ties where the back blade is longer than the front blade. A clear violation of a menswear convention. Are they wrong? Maybe. Or will we care less about the relative lengths of tie blades in the future? Maybe. 

post #30845 of 43869
post #30846 of 43869

Super CBD look there @Seamless looking good!

post #30847 of 43869
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericgereghty View Post

Super CBD look there @Seamless
 looking good!
Thank you. Forgive me I'm unsure what CBD means. Would you mind explaining?
post #30848 of 43869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Seamless View Post

Thank you. Forgive me I'm unsure what CBD means. Would you mind explaining?

CBD = conservative business dress.
post #30849 of 43869
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiplomaticTies View Post
 
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pliny View Post

it was meant to be.  you have demonstrated this often

Sacrilege.  Also wrong.  DT  I can think of dozens of principles off the cuff, and there are literally hundreds if not thousands of 'rules' or cultural conventions.  So objective judgement is possible, and necessary imo.  Nothing is more pernicious than ' Well I like it, and that's just your opinion'.

 

 

That's just hair splitting. Yes, of course there are cultural conventions. Some of them applicable to menswear too. We dont walk around with cashmere jackets and bermudas. At least not in public (unless you're Thom Browne). But there are also thousands and thousands of cultural conventions that are not applicable anymore. Nobody would refrain from wearing brown in town today. My point is that conventions change. Width of lapels, shirt collar and tie should match. But I am sure that someone somewhere put a fit together when it actually worked to mix. Yes, complete relativism is pernicious. But pretending that there are absolute truths about menswear, and that there are people in this forum that actually command all these "truths", is presumptuous.

 

I beg to differ .  Sharing our understanding of the conventions is still imo  this forum's primary raison d'etre.    

 

And of course your statement re  'people on the forum that actually command all these truths' is just a straw man that AFAIK nobody really subscribes to anyway.    Yes there are people who know and understand the conventions better than others, and I for  one am grateful for what I've learned from them-  Mafoo, Manton, Vox,  Gdl, EdMorel.  

 

They don't post in this thread because, frankly, it's a trainwreck, with lots of contributors who are just starting out and who don't even appreciate the extent of their ignorance.  (and a few regulars too who are wilful rebels,  and I won't mention your name AAS).:)

 

Let me ask u-  How do you know when a fit 'actually worked'?  The answer, of course, is that the fit either subscribed to  the conventions, or, even better, and much more difficult, deliberately riffed on the conventions in a new and exciting way.  

 

These things don't happen by chance.  You don't wander into Manton  or Foo's closet, get dressed in the dark, and discover you've put together a great outfit by happenstance.  You have more chance of flapping your arms and flying to the moon.  You need to know the rules before you can break them successfully. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by DiplomaticTies View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiplomaticTies View Post Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
 

 

That's just hairsplitting. Yes, of course there are cultural conventions. Some of them applicable to menswear too. We dont walk around with cashmere jackets and bermudas. At least not in public (unless you're Thom Browne). But there are also thousands and thousands of cultural conventions that are not applicable anymore. Nobody would refrain from wearing brown in town today. My point is that conventions change. Width of lapels, shirt collar and tie should match. But I am sure that someone somewhere put a fit together when it actually worked to mix. 

 

Yes, complete relativism is pernicious. But pretending that there are absolute truths about menswear, and that there are people in this forum that actually command all these "truths", is presumptuous.

 

I should also add that, if you read my latest posts, I don't advocate that cultural conventions and what Academic2 refers to as "principles of dress" should be discarded completely. We all use them every day. And I certainly do not argue that personal taste should be the only reference. But I do argue that one should be careful in dealing with absolutes because principles and conventions change. One should be especially careful when these principles are used to hit people over the head with. Half the peacocks at Pitti wear ties where the back blade is longer than the front blade. A clear violation of a menswear convention. Are they wrong? Maybe. Or will we care less about the relative lengths of tie blades in the future? Maybe. 

 

There's nothing really arguable here imo.    The Duke of Windsor, for example, was a one man Pittti.  His rule-breaking provides some of the foundations on which our current conventions are based. 

 

It's all a bit like poetry.  Find the edge and dance on it. That's the challenge, and the risk.

post #30850 of 43869
If we all agree that total objectivity is impossible and that complete relativism is pernicious, don't we all just pretty much agree?

I suppose no matter what we will see this same disagreement happen from time to time. Tedious as it may seem, in lieu of fit posts, I'm still getting some valuable insights/opinions out of it.
post #30851 of 43869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pliny View Post
 

 

I beg to differ .  Sharing our understanding of the conventions is still imo  this forum's primary raison d'etre.    

 

And of course your statement re  'people on the forum that actually command all these truths' is just a straw man that AFAIK nobody really subscribes to anyway.    Yes there are people who know and understand the conventions better than others, and I for  one am grateful for everything I've learned from them-  Mafoo, Manton, Vox,  Gdl, EdMorel.  

 

They don't post in this thread because, frankly, it's a trainwreck, with lots of contributors who are just starting out and who don't even appreciate the extent of their ignorance.  (and a few regulars too who are wilful rebels,  and I won't mention your name AAS).:)

 

Let me ask u-  How do you know when a fit 'actually worked'?  The answer, of course, is that the fit either subscribed to  the conventions, or, even better, and much more difficult, deliberately riffed on the conventions in a new and exciting way.  

 

These things don't happen by chance.  You don't wander into Manton  or Foo's closet, get dressed in the dark, and discover you've put together a great outfit by happenstance.  You have more chance of flapping your arms and flying to the moon.  You need to know the rules before you can break them successfully. 

 

 

There's nothing really arguable here imo.    The Duke of Windsor, for example, was a one man Pittti.  His rule-breaking provides some of the foundations on which our current conventions are based. 

 

It's all a bit like poetry.  Find the edge and dance on it. That's the challenge, and the risk.

 

Not sure what you beg to differ about, I agree with all your comments here. Especially the fundamental idea that its about sharing our understanding of the conventions and the basic notion that knowledge is always the best basis to bend (or break) rules. 

 

But I have a question, and its not a rhetorical point or anything like that, but because I would be genuinely interested in what some of the longstanding members of the forum thinks. You describe the forum as a "trainwreck", including newbies who "dont even appreciate the extent of their ignorance". But I would think that the basic idea with a forum like this is to have a steady flow of new blood because it is not really interesting to have the same few people express their mutual admiration over each others fits. So how are the newbies greeted?

 

I mentioned before that I do not consider myself to be a proper newbie since I have been involved in other forums, blogs etc for some time now, but I see newcomers here that are met with what I would consider to be rude and condescending remarks. Usually only describing that everything with their fit is wrong, but without any advice that you could actually take with you and use. Is that the way this forum wants to operate? Is it helpful? I have thick skin and a pretty developed sense of what works and doesnt work for me, usually when I get negative feedback it is about issues that I suspected were there. But if I would imagine that my 25 year old self had wandered into this forum, I'm pretty sure that I would have left pretty quickly. I think that is a waste.

post #30852 of 43869

 

 

 

 

 

 

Since I have cluttered what should be a picture driven thread with a lot of text posts, time to make up for it. If someone feels that the suit jacket is a little too tight over the waist, that is perfectly true. A few kilos of holiday weight need to be shedded, but I'm already on it!

 

Coat: Hentsch

Scarf: Frank Leder

Suit: Bespoke (J & J Minnis fabric)

Shirt and PS: Canali

Tie: Viola Milano

Shoes: Edward Green

Cufflinks: Codis Maya

Watch: Swatch

post #30853 of 43869
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiplomaticTies View Post
 
 
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pliny View Post
 

 

I beg to differ .  Sharing our understanding of the conventions is still imo  this forum's primary raison d'etre.    

 

And of course your statement re  'people on the forum that actually command all these truths' is just a straw man that AFAIK nobody really subscribes to anyway.    Yes there are people who know and understand the conventions better than others, and I for  one am grateful for everything I've learned from them-  Mafoo, Manton, Vox,  Gdl, EdMorel.  

 

They don't post in this thread because, frankly, it's a trainwreck, with lots of contributors who are just starting out and who don't even appreciate the extent of their ignorance.  (and a few regulars too who are wilful rebels,  and I won't mention your name AAS).:)

 

Let me ask u-  How do you know when a fit 'actually worked'?  The answer, of course, is that the fit either subscribed to  the conventions, or, even better, and much more difficult, deliberately riffed on the conventions in a new and exciting way.  

 

These things don't happen by chance.  You don't wander into Manton  or Foo's closet, get dressed in the dark, and discover you've put together a great outfit by happenstance.  You have more chance of flapping your arms and flying to the moon.  You need to know the rules before you can break them successfully. 

 

 

There's nothing really arguable here imo.    The Duke of Windsor, for example, was a one man Pittti.  His rule-breaking provides some of the foundations on which our current conventions are based. 

 

It's all a bit like poetry.  Find the edge and dance on it. That's the challenge, and the risk.

 

Not sure what you beg to differ about, I agree with all your comments here. Especially the fundamental idea that its about sharing our understanding of the conventions and the basic notion that knowledge is always the best basis to bend (or break) rules. 

 

But I have a question, and its not a rhetorical point or anything like that, but because I would be genuinely interested in what some of the longstanding members of the forum thinks. You describe the forum as a "trainwreck", including newbies who "dont even appreciate the extent of their ignorance". But I would think that the basic idea with a forum like this is to have a steady flow of new blood because it is not really interesting to have the same few people express their mutual admiration over each others fits. So how are the newbies greeted?

 

I mentioned before that I do not consider myself to be a proper newbie since I have been involved in other forums, blogs etc for some time now, but I see newcomers here that are met with what I would consider to be rude and condescending remarks. Usually only  that everything with their fit is wrong, but without any advice that you could actually take with you and use. Is that the way this forum wants to operate? Is it helpful? I have thick skin and a pretty developed sense of what works and doesnt work for me, usually when I get negative feedback it is about issues that I suspected were there. But if I would imagine that my 25 year old self had wan'

 

 

 

 u said 'there r no fixed principles of dress'. I said 'there are hundreds if not thousands of them' (or words to that effect) and u said 'that's hairsplitting'.    It's not hairsplitting.  It's the key point.

 

re your question  'how r the newbies greeted?'   As u can see for yourself, with a mixture of encouragement and constructive criticism.  Rarely snark, in this thread.  As for 'rude and condescending'  .. I don't see that.  There's the occasional troll, but otherwise the tenor is open, friendly and reasonable. 

 

PS   Fit is nice.  Love the overcoat.  Looks a lot like some Minnis lambswool I just bought.  (top)

 

post #30854 of 43869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pliny View Post
 

 

 

 u said 'there r no fixed principles of dress'. I said 'there are hundreds if not thousands of them' (or words to that effect) and u said 'that's hairsplitting'.    It's not hairsplitting.  It's the key point.

 

re your question  'how r the newbies greeted?'   As u can see for yourself, with a mixture of encouragement and constructive criticism.  Rarely snark, in this thread.  As for 'rude and condescending'  .. I don't see that.  There's the occasional troll, but otherwise the tenor is open, friendly and reasonable. 

 

PS   Fit is nice.  Love the overcoat.  Looks a lot like some Minnis lambswool I just bought.  (top)

 

 

My point was that since the principles are in flux it doesn't matter how many there are. But I get your point, even if I dont fully agree.

 

OK, I'll take your word for the "encouragement and constructive criticism". English is not my first language, maybe there are finer points that I miss. But why is the thread a trainwreck then? That would mean that the newbies are at fault and only them?

 

Very nice fabric. What are you planning to have made?

post #30855 of 43869
Quote:
Originally Posted by DiplomaticTies View Post

My point was that since the principles are in flux it doesn't matter how many there are. But I get your point, even if I dont fully agree.

OK, I'll take your word for the "encouragement and constructive criticism". English is not my first language, maybe there are finer points that I miss. But why is the thread a trainwreck then? That would mean that the newbies are at fault and only them?

This doesn't make sense to me... Anyway, I don't think this thread is a trainwreck and the style of comments and criticism has stayed pretty much the same since I joined SF. It's just that lately a few posters here seem to be very sensitive and take every criticism personally.

So, to keep in the constructive spirit of this thread: that suit fabric is positively hideous. wink.gif
(Though I love your overcoat)
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