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Kiton- what is really inside, lots of pics. - Page 3

post #31 of 327
the truth - how old is the jacket?
post #32 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by gdl203 View Post
hmm... someone creates a brand new login and right in the middle of another conversation in another thread on that subject, posts pictures of a deconstructed Kiton jacket as his first post on SF... hmmm... I wonder if the OP has any skin in this game...

Well, at least we know he's not Artisan Fan.
post #33 of 327
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by zjpj83 View Post
A picture of your giving the machine stitching the finger would go down in Styleforum lore and be a classic for years to come.
This is no handstiched suit, so I offer you no real hand:

post #34 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by the truth View Post
This is no handstiched suit, so I offer you no real hand:
post #35 of 327
Pictures don't lie, only artisans do.
post #36 of 327
For my part, I'll add that though I don't think Kitons are hand sewn, I still think they're really nice suits.

If I ever get into hunting STF or ebay and can get a decent discount on a pattern I like, I'd definitely try one.
post #37 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artisan Fan View Post
Interesting pictures, but I think it's hard for a layman to fully detail all the handwork that goes into the jacket. If Kiton is putting upwards of 25 hours into each jacket then there must either be more handwork involved (I saw a Kiton video showing artisans rolling the lapel by hand then stitching it in) or they are lying. Based on prior experience with Kiton, I doubt they are lying about this.

Zegnamtl has been to the factory, perhaps he has some perspective on this.

What's going to convince you, a signed letter from Massimo Bizzochi saying they're not handmade?
post #38 of 327
Nice post and welcome.
post #39 of 327
Just to make sure...

This is from Kiton`s main line, not Sartorio or some other line, right?
post #40 of 327
There is nothing that is new in these pictures. A year ago on AAAC a series of pictures showing machine padded collars and machine padded labels where posted. The debate that ensued was wether or not the entire process should be done by hand or if a machine can do a certain job better, why not. Most readers fell on the side feeling that, for dollar level charged by Kiton, it should all be done by hand without the use of any sort of machine. That is a personal choice. I do not care if a machine stitched the lapel if when it is assembled, it is done in a way that gives a great result. Oxxford showed me a hand made collar, formed as it was sewn, shaped beautifully to the neck. Kiton has both hand and machine, the machine padded collar rolled and attached achieving a great effect too. Just differently done. Can you look at a Kiton and say that collar is bad, or uncomfortable to wear? Hardly! The reality of your pictures is not that Kiton is a company of liars, but only that you disagree with the definitions of the terminology we use! Hand made vs hand sewn. I had posted about what are the reality of the definitions we throw around? No consensus was found. Oxxford claims their suits are hand made, are they? Yes. They are not entirely HAND SEWN and neither is a Kiton! Neither company said they do not uses some sewing machines for some steps. Both have said they make a suit that is not Machine Made. Both are being truthful in that statement. Neither have said it was entirely HAND SEWN, just hand made. Kiton also uses a sewing machine to sew the long seams of the jacket backs and the pant legs. They do not pretend to they do not. This does not make it a machine made suit. You are chosing to use the terms to achieve the effect you wish to achieve regardless of what was said. You can dispute the use of terms until the cows come home, it does not change the reality of the work, only the way you choose to see and interpret the work! Do you think there is not a single sewing machine on Saville Row? During a recent essay on bespoke tailors I found a tailor using a blind stitching machine to do the lapels on some suits. He claims MANY bespoke tailors do this on some fabrics, for some clients and pick and choose which will be hand sewn. Shall we start cutting all your bespoke to see which is which? Are you happy with the work done or do you need to know it was all hand to allow your self to breath and know your suit is good? Kiton is not for everyone, it is very expensive, the fit does not suit all body types. What amazes me is the pettiness of those who can not allow a company to have a tiny share of the market without thrusting loads of garbage at them out of nothing but pure jealously! They make 12 to 14,000 suits and sports jackets a year. Less than 1/5 of Brioni. But Kiton get 3000 percent more ball busting than Brioni. Why? Jealousy! Choose not to like them if you will, it is your right, choose not to buy them if you can’t afford them, it is your choice. But don’t result to school yard style mud slinging based on nonsense of interpretation of definitions to make yourself feel good. For the record, there where things in each shop that I was asked not to report on. Trade secrets if you will on the way they achieve certain results. At Samuelsohn it was the lapel roll. A simple but brilliantly effect trick they developed over years, if you saw the tread on the flannel trophy suit body, you have to admit it is a really well done roll. The only shop that set no limits what so ever on what I saw, photographed and wrote was Oxxford! While I complete respect each shop wanting to protect their unique tricks, I have a great deal of respect for a company that says shoot what ever you want! So The Truth, Lets be honest and put the cards on the table, what is the agenda at play? This is the long seam of the arm being sewn on a Machine Made suit! Clamp the fabric at both ends and the machine zips up the seam in a few seconds. This is a dart about to made on a Machine Made suit! Line up the laser beam, four or five seconds later, your dart is done! Cut, trimmed and sewn from the inside. Pant seams being sewn in a Machine Made suit factory.
post #41 of 327
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragon View Post
Just to make sure...

This is from Kiton`s main line, not Sartorio or some other line, right?

Yes. This is from Kiton's main line. I did not photograph the full label for personal reasons, but the lining on Santorino does not say Kiton. At least I don't believe that it does.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zegnamtl View Post
Lets be honest and put the cards on the table,
what is the agenda at play?


Why does there have to be an agenda at play. Perhaps I feel ripped off by buying Kiton in the past, perhaps I am a competitor, perhaps I was trying to do a service to the forum.

I cannot see what could be more helpful to the forum than showing these pictures. I didn't comment on good or bad, right or wrong.
post #42 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by zjpj83 View Post
I can't imagine any suit that is made without someone putting their hands in and threading the garment through the machine when necessary. I would love to see a suit factory that looks like a car factory, with robotic arms doing the sewing, but I don't think they exist. As a result, I don't see how you can possibly call stitching that is done by a machine "handmade" simply because the hands of a person put it in place for the machine to do its automated work.
The Discovery Channel has a "How It's Made" program that shows a Quebec suit factory where everything--yes, everything--is done by machine (though of course the machine operators do feed the suits components into the machine by hand).
post #43 of 327
Quote:
Yes. They are not entirely HAND SEWN and neither is a Kiton! Neither company said they do not uses some sewing machines for some steps. Both have said they make a suit that is not Machine Made. Both are being truthful in that statement. Neither have said it was entirely HAND SEWN, just hand made. Kiton also uses a sewing machine to sew the long seams of the jacket backs and the pant legs. They do not pretend to they do not. This does not make it a machine made suit.

+1. I am always amazed at the amount of grief Kiton gets here on the board despite the quality of the suits.

The problem here is that the pictures do not show precisely where the 25+ hours (some say 28-30) of handwork goes in a Kiton suit. But that is still a large amount of hand finishing. And the factory remains quite quiet due to the hand labor.

It might be ideal if there was an individual ISO type organization that said precisely what suits had what hours of handwork in them then we might have a baseline to judge.

But even in that event I am not sure that would solve the problem. Clearly each manufacturer has a different perspective on where the handwork is important. Given the quality of the 7 or 8 suits I have from Kiton and the handsome roll of each lapel I can only conclude that some of this machine work is perfectly functional.

At Oxxford, they use a machine on the shoulders I am told. Why isn't Oxxford crucified for that? At what point does the machine work create a lack of quality?
post #44 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by aportnoy View Post
Pictures don't lie, only artisans do.

I'm only repeating in my posts on Kiton what reliable sources have told me about manufacture. If that information is wrong then I will admit it but I have not seen any evidence yet that a significant amount of handwork has been deployed in a Kiton jacket.
post #45 of 327
Quote:
Originally Posted by the truth View Post
........Why does there have to be an agenda at play. Perhaps I feel ripped off by buying Kiton in the past, perhaps I am a competitor, perhaps I was trying to do a service to the forum.

I cannot see what could be more helpful to the forum than showing these pictures. I didn't comment on good or bad, right or wrong.



Innuendo is a very powerful thing!
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