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Grizzly Bear VS Silverback Gorrila - Page 8

post #106 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by LSeca View Post
JL, as a dog lover I am interested in your Tosa breed. I grew up with my grandfathers award winning English pointers, and as previously mentioned I have handled highly trained Belgian Malanois and German Shephards.

That being said, I remember as a child some nearby neighbors owned a pretty dangerous Chow. They would shave him but leave the the thick, long hair around his neck so it looked like a Lion and it had a purply-black tongue to add to the beastly look. I can remember seeing him literally rip the skin off the back of a stray dog once, and stories of him coming home with dead smaller animals was the norm. I always walked out of my way around the dogs yard, as it always seemed to be able to get loose. Of course this was when I was young, so the things seemed a lot more dangerous than perhaps it was.

Chows have long had a nasty reputation. Even as a little kid, 60 years ago, I was strongly warned by my mother to shun Chows. The only reasons I can see for their popularity is that they are one of the smallest breeds with perceived good guard dog ability and that they are absolutely adorable-looking as puppies.

As fighters, I consider them quite contemptible. So evidently did my first Tosa, Zuma, a magnificent brindle I had imported directly from the Japanese fighting association. One evening I was walking Zuma and Cory the poodle down by the Long Beach Marine Stadium, where there lived a large black Chow named "Bogie." That night, Bogie was loose (his owners seemed pretty cavalier about controlling him) and he seemed to suddenly have a romantic interest in Cory--the stupid brute, she'd been spayed for years. Anyway he came nosing up to her. Zuma, who was hell on wheels with any dog he considered a challenge, didn't even consider Bogie worth firing up for. He simply grabbed him and disdainfully tossed him aside with no more effort than if he had been a teddy bear. Undaunted, Bogie tried to get close to Cory a couple more times, always with the same result, before he decided maybe it wasn't such a good idea.
post #107 of 188
Jan,
Remember that big brouhaha a few years ago, when that teacher, Diane Whipple was killed by a dog. Wasn't that a Tosa, or some very similar breed?
post #108 of 188
The dogs in question were Presa Canarios (aka Dogo Canarios). There is some physical similarity between the two breeds, but nobody familiar with either breed would mistake a Tosa from a Presa or vice-versa. Presas tend to be much more human-aggressive than Tosas, which are generally rather people-friendly dogs. The death of Diane Alexis Whipple in January 2001 was indeed a bizarre case. There was definite temperamental instability upline from Bane, who committed the bulk of the attack, that the attorneys who were caring for the dogs on behalf of their Aryan Brotherhood clients could not have known about. If they had had competent counsel that had done their homework, they might well have walked. However, they were such repulsive, creepy people that they went down. Most people knowledgeable about the case join me in thinking that it was a legal lynching. As a matter of interest, I have heard of one short match, sometimes called a "bump" or "roll," between a Tosa and a Presa. A two-year-old 110-pound Tosa b#tch was pitted against a 135-pound, three-year-old Presa b#tch. My informant told me that the Tosa administered a very one-sided mauling to the Presa for the five minutes or so the owners of the dogs permitted it go on.
post #109 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLibourel View Post
Your surmise would seem to be most reasonable, but apparently such was not necessarily the case. Rather than the lion seeing the grizzly as prey, perhaps it was more of a "turf war" between top end predators, much as wolfpacks will kill mountain lions on occasion without eating them.

Here is some interesting material . . .

That makes sense too. And thanks for the accounts.
post #110 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLibourel View Post
The death of Diane Alexis Whipple in January 2001 was indeed a bizarre case. There was definite temperamental instability upline from Bane, who committed the bulk of the attack, that the attorneys who were caring for the dogs on behalf of their Aryan Brotherhood clients could not have known about. If they had had competent counsel that had done their homework, they might well have walked. However, they were such repulsive, creepy people that they went down. Most people knowledgeable about the case join me in thinking that it was a legal lynching.


The whole case was a travesty. I actually am quite friendly with two of the people who served as experts in it. A friend of ours who is a local expert on dangerous dogs consulted with the prosecution/pound/spca and was horrified at the rush to judgment and execution of the dog(s). From what I remember one she felt was dangerous and the other not. Another friend worked with the prosecution because she is somewhat of an expert in animal cruelty prosecutions. She felt that the case was completely bungled due to the inclusion of the then girlfriend (err beard) of our mayar and current Fox personality's utter ineptness. Finally the defense truly had idiots as clients. How embarrassing. The victim taught or coached (I can't remember which) at my old high school. Talk about a small world.
post #111 of 188
Silverbacks are not predators and very docile by nature. Unless provoked they are content to eat bananas and doze. I would hate to see them face either bear. In fact, I wouldn't want to see any of these fine animals exploited like they were the next Benoit steroid WWE champ. Let humans stick to that nonsense. If forced to give my opinion of a winner in a battle b/w a Grizzly and a polar, though, I'd choose the Grizzly. Despite their poor showing in the NBA last year.
post #112 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by iammatt View Post
She felt that the case was completely bungled due to the inclusion of the then girlfriend (err beard) of our mayar and current Fox personality's utter ineptness. Finally the defense truly had idiots as clients. How embarrassing. The victim taught or coached (I can't remember which) at my old high school. Talk about a small world.

Wouldn't the aforementioned GF of the mayor be Kimberley Guilfoyle Newsom? Surprising that Gavin Newsom choose her? I understand they later split up.

Diane Whipple was the lacrosse coach at Saint Mary's College of California, a private, coeducational college located in Moraga, California.

She attended HS in Manhassett, Long Island, NY.
post #113 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnoldh View Post
Wouldn't the aforementioned GF of the mayor be Kimberley Guilfoyle Newsom? Surprising that Gavin Newsom choose her? I understand they later split up.

Diane Whipple was the lacrosse coach at Saint Mary's College of California, a private, coeducational college located in Moraga, California.

She attended HS in Manhassett, Long Island, NY.
Yes, she coached at Menlo School in Atherton before she went on to St. Mary's. I remember seeing/meeting Kimberly for the first time many years ago. She was very striking and quite beautiful. Now she is weird looking and a little freaky. I would say, with some degree of certainty, that the marriage was more strategic than romantic.
post #114 of 188
This thread is sooo long.
post #115 of 188
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bachbeet View Post
Silverbacks are not predators and very docile by nature. Unless provoked they are content to eat bananas and doze.

Thats exactly the point. If a gorilla was attacked by a grizzly it would be very provoked, and being more human-like maybe adapt to the bear's fight tactics faster
post #116 of 188
If you'll check post #72 on this thread, I mentioned an accidental cage fight between a gorilla and a black leopard. The gorilla panicked and got his arm torn off by leopard. The poor gorilla succumbed to the injury.

My money would be on the grizzly. Also, if we are talking about large male vs. large male, the grizzly would have a considerable size advantage. In the wild (I think, I'll have to check this), large male gorillas don't get much more than 400 to 450 pounds, which is not too large for a mountain grizzly. Coastal grizzlies can weigh three times this amount or more. Moreover, I am not sure that the gorilla would have that much of an edge in intelligence over the grizzly. Grizzlies are highly intelligent animals. I have heard it claimed that they are the most intelligent animals in North America except for humans. Is intelligence that much of an advantage in a contest of brute power, fangs vs. fangs, powerful hands vs. mighty sharp-clawed paws?
post #117 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLibourel View Post
Oh, not necessarily. Here's a horrifying story that was told by one of the men involved to a friend of mine: A hunting party was standing on the bank of an African river conversing with each other when suddenly they heard a voice calling to them from help from beneath the riverbank. It turns out that it was an African native who had been taken by a man-eating crocodile. The croc has stuffed him, still alive, into a food cache the croc had excavated under the riverbank. The poor fellow was thrust into the cave, which already contained two decomposing human bodies, but enough of it was above the water level that he had air to breathe. He had lost an arm in the croc's attack, so he was unable to escape on his own.

Anyway, the hunters rescued him, and I guess he survived. One would have to wonder about his sanity, though. Being stuffed for hours, seriously injured, into a black hole with two decomposing human bodies while waiting for a pitiless carnivorous monster to return and devour you would be enough to inflict a helluva case of post-traumatic stress on the strongest of spirits, I should think.

Oh, I wouldn't doubt this. I've read that crocs will generally not consume their prey right away, but stuff it into rock ledges until they're ready to eat later. The man you describe above was just supremely lucky that he was stuffed somewhere with an air supply and that the hunters happened to hear him. However, what I have read is that a bunch of people will be standing on the shore of a crocodile infested waterway. There'll be a ripple and a splash, and then one less person will be standing on the shore.
post #118 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by contactme_11 View Post
Thats exactly the point. If a gorilla was attacked by a grizzly it would be very provoked, and being more human-like maybe adapt to the bear's fight tactics faster

Humans (well, most anyway) are even more intelligent than gorillas, though not nearly as strong. However, I don't think unarmed combat between a grizzly and a human would end very well for the human, regardless of intelligence. Similarly, despite it's superior physical strength to a human, I don't think the gorilla would fair much better.

The most intelligent thing the gorilla (or a human) could do in a situation like this would be to put as much distance between itself and the grizzly as possible.
post #119 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by JBZ View Post
The most intelligent thing the gorilla (or a human) could do in a situation like this would be to put as much distance between itself and the grizzly as possible.

A man can outrun a gorilla pretty easily, I've read. Neither would have much chance of outdistancing a grizzly, which is extremely fast over short distances.

As long as we are talking about gorillas, have any of you heard of the "Ingagi" hoax? It's quite amusing. It purported to be a documentary of African adventure in which a tribe of gorilla worshipping natives delivers up tender maidens to gorillas, who carry their prizes off to a bestial fate in the jungle. Despite being a major box-office success, the "documentary" proved to be total fake and was more or less suppressed. It used stock shots of African wildlife, but most of the movie was filmed, according to some sources, in Los Angeles' Griffith Park, and the "natives" were members of the L.A. area's African-American community--although according one Internet source, the principal (and doubtless the most winsome)"victim" (whose "rescue" occupies a good part of the documentary) was actually a white girl in blackface (appropriately enough for 1930). The "gorillas," I scarcely need to add, were men in costume.
post #120 of 188
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLibourel View Post
A man can outrun a gorilla pretty easily, I've read. Neither would have much chance of outdistancing a grizzly, which is extremely fast over short distances.


I don't know about outrunning a gorilla (they seem to move pretty fast when they want to), but a man has no chance of outrunning a grizzly. They can run as fast as horses over short distances. I've heard that they don't run down hills very well, but I have no interest in testing out this theory. My thought is that if you come across a grizzly in the wild, you should try to move away as quickly and quietly as possible. If the grizzly decides to charge you and you are unarmed (and my understanding is that you need a very high powered rifle or a shotgun with slugs, and a good bit of luck, if you have any hope to stop a grizzly), there are several strategies you can employ, but they are all worst case scenarios. I have also read that if a grizzly decides to stalk you (which is very rare, but does happen), you need to take a stand and try to demonstrate to the bear that you would not be an easy kill, but again this sounds like a worst case scenario to me.

The best advice is bear avoidance. Stay out of areas with a high bear concentration, travel in groups, make plenty of noise as you hike along, store your food in air tight containers and away from your campsite, don't sleep in the same clothing you cook in, etc.
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