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Good Natured Advice Thread (improving a business wardrobe) - Page 282

post #4216 of 37396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudals View Post

Sir SugarButch has spoken. 
Some freaking misinfo I was fed. 
Guess I should load up on oxfords first. Brown is next on my list. 

I have the Lowndes and wear them often, but they feel too casual to wear with suits in my opinion (mine are brown).

I wear them exclusively with odd trousers - grey flannels, linen, etc.

I would get the cap-toe oxfords first as you'll get much more use out of them and the Lowndes later, if you find you'll be wearing odd trousers outside of work hours.

I think even brown oxfords will be worn less by you than black ones - it seems you're currently more comfortable with black.

However, I believe you'll get to the point where you're wearing the brown ones more often.
post #4217 of 37396

@Christopher Essex 

Thanks for your input. This helps a lot in this decision making. It appears all signs are pointing to the plain brown oxfords to go with my CBD. 

post #4218 of 37396
Rudals, double monks (or any monks) are not as formal as oxfords. They are lovely shoes and can be worn with suits IMO but you are taking a step down in formality if you do it. Considering you seem to either be in a suit for work or something much more casual on the weekend, I don't see any need for you to own anything other than oxfords for work and perhaps something more casual for the weekend. If you start wearing more odd jacket / odd trouser combos (with or without ties), then you'll be able to use a wider range of shoes. In the meantime, think about what you actually wear on a daily basis and what will work best with that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by luv2breformed View Post

Rudals, this doublemonk with suits thing seemed to have 2 camps, some saw them as equally as formal as a bal and others saw them as less formal than a bal. SB clearly delineated which camp he is in and I happen to be in the same camp. I don't think DM with a suit is nearly as bad as say a loafer with a suit, but it is certainly sprezzing a bit IMO. When this was discussed somebody posted that Monks were a "halfway house" between loafers and bals, and I think that makes sense to me.

I don't know how many people see them as equally formal so much as both wearable in certain formal situations. They are not and it seems we agree on this (I can't imagine people who argue stitch caps work with black tie defending double monks with black tie for example). The issue is whether they are wearable with a suit and I'd say yes here. I think that monks in general are very versatile shoes that are able to work at different levels of formality, but they are not an equally formal substitute for oxfords. I think the halfway house analogy works well.
post #4219 of 37396
Quote:
Originally Posted by luv2breformed View Post
 

[...] When this was discussed somebody posted that Monks were a "halfway house" between loafers and bals, and I think that makes sense to me.[...]

 

That was me, quoting Roetzel, though I could just as well have been quoting Flusser or any number of other people (to be precise, Roetzel speaks of "lace-ups," not balmorals, but that doesn't affect the point).

 

The general consensus for quite some time now has been that, all other factors being equal, monks are less dressy than Oxfords.  I don't really think there's much debate on that point.

 

Rather, the debate is about (or should be about) locating the boundary of conservative business dress and determining whether monks fall inside or outside that boundary.  On that there can't be a consensus (though. trivially. there may be a majority) since that boundary is ill-defined and shifting.  Among other things, it depends on what business one is in, and where one is located.  Sartorial norms, especially those having to do with binary distinctions like casual/dressy, are subject to variation based on lots of other factors.  That's one reason why very knowledgeable people can quite reasonably disagree on what constitutes those norms.

 

Cheers,

 

Ac

post #4220 of 37396
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibaldleach View Post

Rudals, double monks (or any monks) are not as formal as oxfords. They are lovely shoes and can be worn with suits IMO but you are taking a step down in formality if you do it. Considering you seem to either be in a suit for work or something much more casual on the weekend, I don't see any need for you to own anything other than oxfords for work and perhaps something more casual for the weekend. If you start wearing more odd jacket / odd trouser combos (with or without ties), then you'll be able to use a wider range of shoes. In the meantime, think about what you actually wear on a daily basis and what will work best with that.
I don't know how many people see them as equally formal so much as both wearable in certain formal situations. They are not and it seems we agree on this (I can't imagine people who argue stitch caps work with black tie defending double monks with black tie for example). The issue is whether they are wearable with a suit and I'd say yes here. I think that monks in general are very versatile shoes that are able to work at different levels of formality, but they are not an equally formal substitute for oxfords. I think the halfway house analogy works well.

 

Here's how it went. Cleav started things by looking awesome in DM and a suit:

 

Quote: Rudals
 @Cleav Are you wearing a suit with those monks? I was interested in getting a pair of monks but was told that it is not as formal as oxfords.

 

Then this guy who I don't know said this thing:

 

Quote: BriceT1000
 It has been my impression that monks are traditionally considered MORE formal unless I have been completely mistaken. Either way, my suede monks go great with a suede belt and olive stripe suit

 

And then Stiches tried to help, but may have confused Rudals:

 

Quote: in stitches
 I think the #menswear obsession with DMs has confused things for people. DMs are serious shoes for serious clothing. Sure they can be spreezed out, but regular black or burgundy cap toed DMs are indeed formal.

 

Then SB and edmorel both came in and laid the smack down but the convo had kinda moved on by then and it may have been missed:

 

Quote: sugarbutch
  ~~Not saying they can't be worn with suits, but dubs are not at the formal end of the scale. Buckles and straps are pretty fussy relative to the sleek simplicity of a plain-toe oxford.

 

Quote: edmorel
 ~~SB is 100% correct, regardless of #menswear clones wearing them with everything imaginable, double monks are only above crepe sole shoes and sneakers in appropriateness to wear with a suit.

 

This has been play by play with L2bR . . .

post #4221 of 37396
Doodals, just back from a busy day on the Royal Links.

It would strike me that you need to sort out the basics in your shoe rota. You have the C & J black and now you should get the brown. Then consider suede or single monk or DMs, brogues, loafers, Chelsea boot, Chukka boot, whatever gets you going... but first get the basic rota right, then you can flirt with 'd'rules' or push at a couple of accepted boundaries...
post #4222 of 37396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cleav View Post

Doodals, just back from a busy day on the Royal Links.

It would strike me that you need to sort out the basics in your shoe rota. You have the C & J black and now you should get the brown. Then consider suede or single monk or DMs, brogues, loafers, Chelsea boot, Chukka boot, whatever gets you going... but first get the basic rota right, then you can flirt with 'd'rules' or push at a couple of accepted boundaries...
Final answer
Brown Hallam
Thank you Cleav!
post #4223 of 37396
Quote:
Originally Posted by luv2breformed View Post



Here's how it went. Cleav started things by looking awesome in DM and a suit:



This has been play by play with L2bR . . .


Thanks Luv, very kind nod[1].gif
post #4224 of 37396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudals View Post

Final answer
Brown Hallam
Thank you Cleav!

Mate, your very welcome. It's just an opinion as you know, you plot your course as you see fit nod[1].gif
post #4225 of 37396

@Cleav 

I am double posting this. What are your thoughts on the below. 

If I already have a Hallam in black, does it make sense to get the Alex in black as well? I wonder if they'll look too similar. I was thinking about getting a brown oxford. Thanks! :fonz:

ALEX (Click to show)
1.jpg
HALLAM (Click to show)
1.jpg
post #4226 of 37396
you dont need the alex right now. that is a pretty un-versatile shoe imo. get brown cap toes.
post #4227 of 37396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudals View Post

@Cleav
 
I am double posting this. What are your thoughts on the below. 
If I already have a Hallam in black, does it make sense to get the Alex in black as well? I wonder if they'll look too similar. I was thinking about getting a brown oxford. Thanks! fing02%5B1%5D.gifALEX (Click to show)
1.jpg
HALLAM (Click to show)
1.jpg

You could do. I have Alex and Wemouth (337) the hand grade with a medallion.

The Grenville is also a nice whole cut with more detail. It depends what you want. For me I wouldn't want them to be too similar to your Hallam YMMV though I guess not as your asking the question.

A brown oxford is good. Depends if you want some flexibility, you could go with another brown shoe that could double up in less formal settings. That way work or otherwise you have some room to wriggle. Edgware would do that for you covering both camps. The world is your oyster though Doodals!

BTW, there will be some not liken' the Wholecut and that is fine too TheirMMV!
post #4228 of 37396

@Cleav 

Always appreciate your input. 

post #4229 of 37396
the edgware is an awesome shoe, but im not thinking its as conservative as rudals is looking for.
post #4230 of 37396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rudals View Post

@Cleav
 
Always appreciate your input. 

Pleasure, just an opinion. Just checked the Edgware, tis nice nod[1].gif however there's such a lot of 'nice' there it's about nailing the staples then pushing it out as we said the other day. Hallam in dark brown would tick the box too and you like the shoe.
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