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Good Natured Advice Thread (improving a business wardrobe) - Page 2487

post #37291 of 37667
Thread Starter 
I've yet to come across anyone in real life that knows what grenadine is, much less SF, so I don't know how much it screams "SF brigade" in a language anyone outside the forum understands.

Grenadines are simply wonderful ties. Great visual interest for a solid tie. Business appropriate, as opposed to some other solid ties that have textural interest (raw silk) or slight variegation (some wool ties). This was true before SF came about and true before places like J. Crew started carrying them, so I guess I don't understand how their popularity within certain small circles really changes anything.

They are classic, as much as that word is overused, and are unlikely to ever look dated, even within certain circles in which a grenadine might be recognized (unlike perhaps patterned grenadines).

As far as general standing out, pocket squares are probably much more likely to be perceived as screaming something than any tie ever will.
post #37292 of 37667
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petepan View Post

I find that unlined jackets help immensely against the humid heat.

A loose weave cotton/linen blend I find works better than pure linen.

 

Too informal, unfortunately. Plus, sloping shoulders. I need a bit of structure.

 

I do have cotton/linen blend shirts. They do delay the inevitable a bit. However they soak up more water (so dry slower), look more informal, and are a little too cool once you step into A/C. I guess you can't have it all...

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by calypso View Post
 

 

you can perhaps have a couple of extra shirts / pants at work?

And just change once you are there.

 

Most of the time I'm going to/from client or investor offices alas. Sucks when I have multiple meetings in one day, either I take a lot of Ubers (literally just for the A/C) or I need to get home and change shirts in between. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by aj805 View Post

 

@crdb I have given up OTR almost entirely. In my area at least, they simply don't stock reasonable clothing solutions for the heat. Who wears a fully (poly) lined suit when it's 94F and 88% humidity--every day?

 

So nearly all my trousers, shirts and jackets are MTM (Luxire): the trousers made loose and unlined cotton/linen for more casual, more formal are frescos w/bemberg lining. Shirts all cotton/linen. I don't wear undershirts. In my experience, an unstructured, unlined (or quarter-lined in bemberg) cotton/linen or fresco jacket wears cooler than undershirts, with benefit of being removable should you get too hot. Also, you can wear short sleeves under it.

 

Ah, but OTR has that wonderful quality, it is cheap. On sale, second hand, or sometimes just at outlets. 

 

When I sell my company, I'll definitely return to my tailor, I have a long list of things I'd like him to make. Right now the capital is locked in and the rest is saved as a hedge if things go south.

post #37293 of 37667
Quote:
Originally Posted by Claghorn View Post

I've yet to come across anyone in real life that knows what grenadine is, much less SF, so I don't know how much it screams "SF brigade" in a language anyone outside the forum understands.

Grenadines are simply wonderful ties. Great visual interest for a solid tie. Business appropriate, as opposed to some other solid ties that have textural interest (raw silk) or slight variegation (some wool ties). This was true before SF came about and true before places like J. Crew started carrying them, so I guess I don't understand how their popularity within certain small circles really changes anything.

They are classic, as much as that word is overused, and are unlikely to ever look dated, even within certain circles in which a grenadine might be recognized (unlike perhaps patterned grenadines).

As far as general standing out, pocket squares are probably much more likely to be perceived as screaming something than any tie ever will.

I think this is entirely geography and context dependent, and I agree with you regarding looking dated, although that was not my criticism. 

 

In Singapore, everybody, expat or local, is wearing grenadine, especially grossa, especially unlined. I've seen a lot of it in London as well, usually immediately correlating with the Sean Connery association. Also in Australia. Can't speak for the US as I haven't been in years (except Hawaii, but nobody wore a tie). It could be that in Texas the grenadine fever has not hit yet. I know the West Coasters who make it here are definitely infected.

 

There's nothing wrong with signalling belonging to a tribe, although people generally dislike when they learn that the signal and reality do not match. I personally do not expend much mental energy into figuring out and following the latest trends, beyond noting what is statistically more common. As such, I avoid grenadines in order not to send the wrong signal to those who do.

post #37294 of 37667
Thread Starter 
So...you expend mental energy thinking about what is popular and what people are wearing to signal that you don't expend mental energy thinking about what is popular and what people are wearing :-P

Though if everyone is wearing it in Singapore, through your deviance, you are signaling that you perhaps expend MORE mental energy than most in considering the social implications of your tie choice

Ya damn hipster ^_^


---
Maybe everyone in NYC is wearing grenadines and winking at each other about them. I didn't see any at a recent and very large conference in California though. In general, the US pretty anti-tie these days, and folks who are in settings where they are expected to spend serious money on neckwear generally purchase neckties from high end makers with brand cachet among their circles (Hermes, Ferragamo, Charvet), so probably not grenadines.

In Seoul, I never saw many grenadines, even with the #menswear crowd over there, but I left in 2014, so plenty of time for that to have changed. I hope that if it had become ubiquitous among the younger style conscious professional crowd, I would not have let it bother me, but living in Texas (and maybe the US in general), I doubt I'll ever find out.
post #37295 of 37667

I don't think I can ever recall seeing someone wearing a grenadine tie in Chicago. This is a relatively fashion conscious city too. But even if they did, it is certainly possible to wear a fashionable item in an unaffected way. 

post #37296 of 37667

I remember upon leaving a restaurant at the same time as another diner that he was wearing the most immaculately cut suit I had seen that year. I was tremendously impressed to see that it was not a 3 roll 2 - the lapel was clean all the way to the buttoning point!

 

So, to your first sentence, yes, although it doesn't take much thinking. But you're still not getting it. I don't want to deviate-or-not-deviate, I just don't want to falsely create too good a first impression only for the chap to then decide I'm not one of his tribe and be mildly annoyed at the "deception". It's just considerate. And to me grenadine = SF type or hipster. Note that this is not a criticism of either group (nice IG fits, by the way), merely an admission of not belonging. You can like string quartets, go to the concerts, without being a violinist. Know your limits and all that.

 

It doesn't matter, in the grand scheme of things. One of the best people I worked for wore a dark green polyester suit from the supermarket to client board meetings, he was still extremely well regarded in the firm. Beyond looking "neat and not casual", not much is expected of the modern dresser. Beyond not smelling like a tramp, not much is expected of his signature scent. Etc. Still, you can take care of these details and communicate some things faster, which is considerate to the time starved.

post #37297 of 37667

crdb,

 

What are your recommendations then of a non-grenadine tie from the selections I linked to? Or do you have something else in mind that's not on my list to go with a mid-grey suit?

post #37298 of 37667

I wouldnt mind someone linking me with Sean Connery...

post #37299 of 37667
Quote:
Originally Posted by crdb View Post

So, to your first sentence, yes, although it doesn't take much thinking. But you're still not getting it. I don't want to deviate-or-not-deviate, I just don't want to falsely create too good a first impression only for the chap to then decide I'm not one of his tribe and be mildly annoyed at the "deception". It's just considerate. And to me grenadine = SF type or hipster.

This sort of sounds like you don't want to make a good impression and have someone be friendly to you, because then you have to passive aggressively suggest how you're not like them/ think you're much better than them.
post #37300 of 37667
Quote:
Originally Posted by dieworkwear View Post


This sort of sounds like you don't want to make a good impression and have someone be friendly to you, because then you have to passive aggressively suggest how you're not like them/ think you're much better than them.

Let me attempt an example using your blog (which I enjoy very much): you probably have at least two types of fan mail, from "enthusiastic beginners" and from "experts". You can probably tell within a couple of paragraphs or even from the subject line which is which, which will in turn determine the style of your response and its content, things like "how much do I need to explain". 

 

The signal is important because it allows you to target your response without knowing the person who has contacted you. In the same way, when doing business you are continuously meeting a stream of people and needing to make decisions on a small amount of information.

 

Shared culture, understanding someone's context and background, can mean much higher bandwidth communication (e.g. if you are Indian, British or Australian, a cricket metaphor can safely be used to convey a complex point in a one liner). I recently had an Uber driver who was a little cold until we talked about a pair of large birds living in the neighbourhood (where he lived when he was younger) at which point he warmed up, identified a snake I spotted off a blurry photo, and told me of his adventures (and lost finger) handling snakes professionally for the zoo. There's no value judgement in such interactions, and everybody has them, consciously or unconsciously. 

 

My biggest weakness is professional sports, I follow none and don't understand many that are popular around here (cricket first and foremost). I have to tactfully steer the conversation elsewhere every time as sports are one of the biggest common ground amongst men used to establish rapport globally. 

 

How you dress says something about you before you even speak a word and as such these things need to be thought about. IMHO. But it's also not worth making a mountain out of a molehill. I personally am avoiding grenadines for a while, and will reuse them later. A couple people agree. A few more disagree. If we all thought the same life would be very boring indeed.

post #37301 of 37667
Quote:
Originally Posted by crdb View Post
 

My biggest weakness is professional sports, I follow none and don't understand many that are popular around here (cricket first and foremost). I have to tactfully steer the conversation elsewhere every time as sports are one of the biggest common ground amongst men used to establish rapport globally. 

 

Couldn't you just use this as a strength? I know nothing about rugby, but I've used that ignorance to start conversations with people by asking questions, relating it to things I know, and trying to engage people on a topic that they like. Couldn't you just as easily apply this logic to your odd reasoning to avoiding grenadine ties?

post #37302 of 37667
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caustic Man View Post
 

 

Couldn't you just use this as a strength? I know nothing about rugby, but I've used that ignorance to start conversations with people by asking questions, relating it to things I know, and trying to engage people on a topic that they like. Couldn't you just as easily apply this logic to your odd reasoning to avoiding grenadine ties?

Well, you want to steer the conversation into a direction both sides will find interesting. Would you be comfortable listening to someone talk about rugby for hours?

 

I don't understand how this links to grenadine ties. Care to expand?

post #37303 of 37667

Just stop overthinking it man.

 

If you like grenadines, wear them, if you don't, don't.

post #37304 of 37667
Quote:
Originally Posted by crdb View Post
 

Well, you want to steer the conversation into a direction both sides will find interesting. Would you be comfortable listening to someone talk about rugby for hours?

 

I don't understand how this links to grenadine ties. Care to expand?


I'm not sure I'd want to hear someone talk about anything for hours. This has become ever more evident to me as I navigate grad school. However, I wouldn't mind talking about for some time. Especially if it is a situation where I want to cultivate relationships and connections.

 

As for how it relates to ties, you seemed to use the cricket example as evidence of the type of thing you try to avoid by not wearing grenadine ties. It seemed a bit odd to me, but I ran with it. What I'm getting at is that your attempt to find  mutually acceptable middle ground that all would find acceptable is counter-productive. Differences in taste or opinion are just as much an opportunity to form relationships as they are challenges.

post #37305 of 37667
Quote:
Originally Posted by crdb View Post

Let me attempt an example using your blog (which I enjoy very much): you probably have at least two types of fan mail, from "enthusiastic beginners" and from "experts". You can probably tell within a couple of paragraphs or even from the subject line which is which, which will in turn determine the style of your response and its content, things like "how much do I need to explain".  Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

The signal is important because it allows you to target your response without knowing the person who has contacted you. In the same way, when doing business you are continuously meeting a stream of people and needing to make decisions on a small amount of information.

Shared culture, understanding someone's context and background, can mean much higher bandwidth communication (e.g. if you are Indian, British or Australian, a cricket metaphor can safely be used to convey a complex point in a one liner). I recently had an Uber driver who was a little cold until we talked about a pair of large birds living in the neighbourhood (where he lived when he was younger) at which point he warmed up, identified a snake I spotted off a blurry photo, and told me of his adventures (and lost finger) handling snakes professionally for the zoo. There's no value judgement in such interactions, and everybody has them, consciously or unconsciously. 

My biggest weakness is professional sports, I follow none and don't understand many that are popular around here (cricket first and foremost). I have to tactfully steer the conversation elsewhere every time as sports are one of the biggest common ground amongst men used to establish rapport globally. 

How you dress says something about you before you even speak a word and as such these things need to be thought about. IMHO. But it's also not worth making a mountain out of a molehill. I personally am avoiding grenadines for a while, and will reuse them later. A couple people agree. A few more disagree. If we all thought the same life would be very boring indeed.

It's kind of you to think that I get email from readers, but I don't get that many messages. Honestly don't categorize people's questions into experts or beginners either (not saying that to be polite).

It sounds like you don't want to wear grenadines because you don't want people to talk to you about fashion? Because it's something that you're not interested in (and seemingly hate)? I guess if the topic comes up, you can just say you don't know much about it and be friendly.

Honestly, it seem more like you dislike a certain group -- I guess a fashion-conscious crowd -- and don't want to be associated with them. Which is fine. I think that's how a lot of clothing choices work. Maybe Singapore is full of guys walking around in Givenchy tees and grenadine ties, I don't know. I just can't imagine grenadines being a thing or not a thing since I think of them like rep stripes or wool ties.
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