or Connect
Styleforum › Forums › Men's Style › Classic Menswear › Good Natured Advice Thread (improving a business wardrobe)
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Good Natured Advice Thread (improving a business wardrobe) - Page 2447

post #36691 of 37396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caustic Man View Post
  Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

 Since you asked... 

 

:D

 

Sorry, but I have to use JC for illustration purposes. Put your thumb over his face if you feel awkward about it. I have highlighted the problems in red and the good stuff or solutions in green.

 

 

JC already knows what I'm about to tell you and I'm not revealing and secrets here, just commonly held knowledge about not looking like a hobbit when you wear clothes. The fact that he persists in wearing these mistakes tells me that he is either a masochist, half blind, or purposefully belligerent. Possibly all three. First the shoulders: You can see the slope of the shoulders, hi lighted in red, is rather steep. For the person of average, or above average, height this is desirable. However, for the short man this enhances short stature. A slightly more construction, hi lighted in green, would give an illusion of more height by raising the height of the shoulder. Criticizing someone's large lapel width is like making a joke about his mother on SF, but whatevs. By slightly slimming the lapel JC would underplay the lateral lines of the lapel, creating a more vertical line and giving yet another accentuation of height. The buttoning point is much too high for a short person. Drop it lower and give yourself a vertical plane to mirror the line of the legs. Patch pockets are a big no-no short short people. They create not only more lateral lines on the torso, but literally putting a stubby block of fabric in the worst possible place, the torso. But you have to have pockets, right? The solution is to be as discrete with your pockets as possible. Flapped pockets are ok, but besom is better. Jacket length is easy. Longer jacket lengths reduce the appearance of length in the legs so short dudes should avoid them at all costs. They need a jacket as short as possible while still conforming to classic tastes. Not only will this extend the line of the legs, but it will make the torso appear longer. Another big no-no for the shorties, trouser cuffs. Yet again, lateral lines breaking up the length of the legs. Keep them trews uncuffed. JC's trouser length is really good. Short-stops never want to have too much break, if any at all. More lateral lines, again. Not a big deal for obviously tall or average height people, but if you are really short you want to use every device you can to create the illusion of height. 

 

Now you may be saying "But if I can't have wide lapels, patch pockets, and cuffed trousers how can I be a SF star???" The answer is to damn the torpedoes and do what is right for your stature.

 

Follows these guidelines and you'll look like Andre The Giant. Well, not really, but at least you won't look like Frodo.

 

 

This critique is spot-on, but I'd be feeling a bit crushed if I were JCM reading it. And if he has just read it, well - I'm sure there are still many people who like that suit despite the faults Caustic has just pointed out. Mainly, it's beautifully made from nice cloth and it fits well. 

 

But yes, I find myself unable to disagree with just about every stylistic point Caustic has made above.

post #36692 of 37396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coxsackie View Post
 

 

This critique is spot-on, but I'd be feeling a bit crushed if I were JCM reading it. And if he has just read it, well - I'm sure there are still many people who like that suit despite the faults Caustic has just pointed out. Mainly, it's beautifully made from nice cloth and it fits well. 

 

But yes, I find myself unable to disagree with just about every stylistic point Caustic has made above.


JCM is a tough guy. Besides, none of this is anything I (and others) haven't said to him before. He knows the faults and is apparently willing to accept them. FWIW, I think he is the best dressed guy who makes every mistake for his height that I have ever seen. On top of that there are many people here who have no problem with what he is wearing, although I think they would have a bigger problem with the things I have pointed out if they saw him in person. Just a hunch.

post #36693 of 37396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caustic Man View Post

although I think they would have a bigger problem with the things I have pointed out if they saw him in person. Just a hunch.

Nope.
post #36694 of 37396
You're 6'5". Stilts wouldn't make him look taller to you.
post #36695 of 37396
Having had the benefit of seeing jcm in three dimensions, I can say that most of CM's critiques are more truthy than true. The supposed beneficial optical illusions don't really accomplish much IRL. You can choose to cover your ass or visually lengthen your legs. You can make the lapels proportional to your head or to some theoretical ideal. You can get the improved drape from cuffs or gain (maybe) some extra perceived lankiness from no cuffs. They're all tradeoffs, and if you're short, not a single one of them will make you look any less short. A man with a relatively long torso and short legs will never look like anything but that.

I do think that besom pockets are a useful suggestion, and also that a short man's odd jacket length might usefully be shorter than his suit jacket.
post #36696 of 37396

No style of clothing will make you look less short, but some will make you look more short.

 

FWIW: I make some pretty atrocious mistakes for a tall guy. Granted, over-accentuating height isn't as big a deal, but somethings can make you look disproportionate.

post #36697 of 37396

On the previous topic, just my opinion, but sometimes there's value in saying or writing what some consider to be obvious. Since many reading are thinking about some form of custom clothes but haven't yet taken the plunge, it seemed like a good thing to me that Greg noted that there can be a difference between the things that you ask for and the things that you want. Telling a tailor or vendor  that you didn't get what you asked is completely reasonable. Pausing to consider whether to ask for a remake of something because a detail is missing when you got what you really wanted seems like valuable perspective to me.

 

CM's critique of JCM's fit is valuable for the same reason. But as Murl and Butch note, seeing something in three dimensions can make a difference.

post #36698 of 37396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caustic Man View Post
 

The fact that he persists in wearing these mistakes tells me that he is either a masochist, half blind, or purposefully belligerent. Possibly all three.

Or he isn't sensitive about his height, and doesn't particularly care?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caustic Man View Post
 

You can see the slope of the shoulders, hi lighted in red, is rather steep. For the person of average, or above average, height this is desirable. However, for the short man this enhances short stature. A slightly more construction, hi lighted in green, would give an illusion of more height by raising the height of the shoulder. 

Most of your 'fixes' are about creating vertical lines to enhance height but this 'fix' is creating a horizontal one. Would this not make him seem wider? It seems to contradict the rest of the post.

post #36699 of 37396
Quote:
Originally Posted by venividivicibj View Post
 

Most of your 'fixes' are about creating vertical lines to enhance height but this 'fix' is creating a horizontal one. Would this not make him seem wider? It seems to contradict the rest of the post.

 

In a certain sense it does, but what else it does is more important. By that I mean the fact that it raises the perceived height of the shoulder. The point isn't just to eliminate horizontal lines in favor of vertical ones, after all. 

post #36700 of 37396
Quote:
Originally Posted by venividivicibj View Post
 

Or he isn't sensitive about his height, and doesn't particularly care?

 

BTW, I think this is an interesting statement. Not because of the truth or falsehood of it, but because of what it implies to me. Specifically, why should anyone want to minimize shortness or accentuate tallness? I suppose it all has to go back to an ancient concern with the "ideal". Brummell looked to the Greeks for inspiration as to what constituted "perfect" proportions in the human form, and who could blame him? When it comes to proportion the Greeks (usually) had it down, even though they never sufficiently solved the problem of spacing columns while still maintaining a harmonious proportion between long and short sides of a temple. Notwithstanding, they did pretty good. The point being that a person should be able to achieve something approximating ideal proportions (or rather the illusion of it) through the manipulation of what they wear. We are still stuck with those proportions today. Why didn't the short man become the ideal that all the poor lanky tall folks tried to emulate? Complex question that has nothing to do with clothes. Whatever the case, from previous conversations I think JCM is conscious of his height and often attempts the correct course of not accentuating his shortness. The fact that he discards it may indicate that he doesn't take it too seriously. What I mean to say is that I think he does care, but he isn't sensitive about it.

post #36701 of 37396
Thread Starter 

Of CM's various suggestions, I definitely back the shoulders the most (and simultaneously, find the extent of SF's love affair with unstructured shoulders baffling, though I like light structure myself). I'd consider those lapels to be fairly for the cut of the jacket, particularly sleeves and shoulders. Never thought of patch pockets in that light, but it makes sense. Though if your desire is to make a jacket appear casual, I don't know that it would be worth the sacrifice.

post #36702 of 37396

On the issue of the patch pockets, I don't think they are the most important part of casualizing a jacket. Fabric, pattern, and buttons are much more valuable in that regard. Patch pockets, then, are on the lower end of the spectrum in terms of importance and well worth sacrificing.

post #36703 of 37396
@Caustic Man brings up some interesting and mostly good points. I figured I'd weigh in as another shorter (5ft7) guy. I have my jackets made with very little padding, but my shoulders are also not particularly sloped so it doesn't have the effect Caustic highlights. I go with jackets that are as short as I'm comfortable with while still basically covering my ass, uncuffed trousers and a slight break (no break risks exposing an excessive amount of sock). I mostly go with patch pockets on odd jackets and flapped or besom pockets on suits (except for a casual suit, like something in linen or seersucker). I think lapel length on my stuff is moderate.

Other than preferring shorter jackets, I'm not really conscious of my height when making decisions about clothes. I like patch pockets on odd jackets, so I get them. Maybe someone thinks I'm some fraction of an inch shorter due to some optical illusion because of it. I don't care. I hate cuffs on trousers aesthetically, so I never get them and don't like the way moderate to large amounts of trouser break look, so I get a slight break. Both of these things work for my stature. Perhaps I'd avoid cuffs even if I liked them as a concession, but it would depend on how strongly I felt. In general, I'd rather someone think I'm 5ft6 and feel and look confident in my clothes and skin than have someone think I'm 5ft7 and not be as confident and comfortable because I don't like what I'm wearing.
post #36704 of 37396
Quote:
Originally Posted by Caustic Man View Post
 


 Since you asked... 

 

:D

 

Sorry, but I have to use JC for illustration purposes. Put your thumb over his face if you feel awkward about it. I have highlighted the problems in red and the good stuff or solutions in green.

 

 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

 

 

JC already knows what I'm about to tell you and I'm not revealing and secrets here, just commonly held knowledge about not looking like a hobbit when you wear clothes. The fact that he persists in wearing these mistakes tells me that he is either a masochist, half blind, or purposefully belligerent. Possibly all three. First the shoulders: You can see the slope of the shoulders, hi lighted in red, is rather steep. For the person of average, or above average, height this is desirable. However, for the short man this enhances short stature. A slightly more construction, hi lighted in green, would give an illusion of more height by raising the height of the shoulder. Criticizing someone's large lapel width is like making a joke about his mother on SF, but whatevs. By slightly slimming the lapel JC would underplay the lateral lines of the lapel, creating a more vertical line and giving yet another accentuation of height. The buttoning point is much too high for a short person. Drop it lower and give yourself a vertical plane to mirror the line of the legs. Patch pockets are a big no-no short short people. They create not only more lateral lines on the torso, but literally putting a stubby block of fabric in the worst possible place, the torso. But you have to have pockets, right? The solution is to be as discrete with your pockets as possible. Flapped pockets are ok, but besom is better. Jacket length is easy. Longer jacket lengths reduce the appearance of length in the legs so short dudes should avoid them at all costs. They need a jacket as short as possible while still conforming to classic tastes. Not only will this extend the line of the legs, but it will make the torso appear longer. Another big no-no for the shorties, trouser cuffs. Yet again, lateral lines breaking up the length of the legs. Keep them trews uncuffed. JC's trouser length is really good. Short-stops never want to have too much break, if any at all. More lateral lines, again. Not a big deal for obviously tall or average height people, but if you are really short you want to use every device you can to create the illusion of height. 

 

Now you may be saying "But if I can't have wide lapels, patch pockets, and cuffed trousers how can I be a SF star???" The answer is to damn the torpedoes and do what is right for your stature.

 

Follows these guidelines and you'll look like Andre The Giant. Well, not really, but at least you won't look like Frodo.

 

Being a short person myself, I can say from experience that only about half of the tips above make any sense.

Yes to slightly stronger shoulders and a lower buttoning point. But, I've found that the width of the lapels doesn't have much influence on perceived body length, as long as the V created by a lower buttoning point affords enough "verticality". Besom pockets may be a bit more flattering than flap or patch pockets, but not that important IMO. So for a suit, choose besom, but go ahead with patch pockets on your SC's.

Shorter jackets are not always the best solution: most important is to have correct proportions and fluent lines. So if you drop the buttoning point, don't make the jacket too short because you'll end up with awkward proportions that only draw attention to your being short.

For a long time I also believed that uncuffed trousers were better, but in the end I've found out it hardly matters. (And cuffed trousers do look nicer). What a short guy should avoid is a trouser break. Make sure your trouser legs just barely touch your shoes.

This way, you can look like a SF star and Andre The Giant at the same time :D

post #36705 of 37396
Quote:
Originally Posted by masaccio View Post

This thread has already lost had enough of its Noodles-ness.

It'd be a shame for it also to lose its good-naturedness.

Judging by what happened to him, I think the above statement would be more accurate. 

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Classic Menswear
Styleforum › Forums › Men's Style › Classic Menswear › Good Natured Advice Thread (improving a business wardrobe)