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Good Natured Advice Thread (improving a business wardrobe) - Page 2021

post #30301 of 37395

Doodledoc, as v3bj said, you're confusing fit and style.  Jackets can be cut and sewn to in one particular style or another, and how they "fit" should be compared to other jackets of a similar cut to judge the size, which we'll call objective even though it's not entirely. Now whether you like how one jacket is cut vs another of a different cut is a matter of preference, or subjective.  I would take some time to re-read the excerpts he posted from the Manton suit thread. The idea of a drape cut and fullness was also new to me a year ago, and I had to incorporate that new information and way of thinking about how clothes can fit into my already established knowledge from reading SF and similar sites. Takes some time, I think that's the stage you're at right now. The shoulder rumples you're fixating on aren't really what's being discussed when people talk about fullness or drape (again, see above). These are things that are hard to appreciate in images. Perhaps somebody has a side shot of a full vs lean torso and a draped vs clean chest to help illustrate further?

post #30302 of 37395
Quote:
Originally Posted by venividivicibj View Post
 

Also interesting how you characterize the suits that look the tight-est to the body, and have the most structure seem the most natural. To me, its the opposite - the formosa look very relaxed and more casual, while the SS looks more stiff and formal (not that there is anything wrong with that, just how the suit/jacket is structured)


When I say more natural in this case, I mean closer to his body type. The Formosa makes him look like a football player or body builder. The SS suits make him look more lean and fit. My guess is that his body type is closer to lean and fit.

post #30303 of 37395
Quote:
Originally Posted by doodledoc View Post
 


This is considered a drape jacket? I see the lines in the back, but this doesn't appear to be full at all to me. This jacket looks more like the SS jackets than any of the Formosa jackets. This jacket is better looking than all the other jackets in my opinion. Natural shoulders, nipped waist, good length, clean lines.

You can't really go by what you know or what you're seeing here. I'd argue you need to see the person without the jacket on to really appreciate swelling and drape, and then see things in 3 dimensions.  That jacket, when worn will feel substantially different from a suitsupply jacket. The chest will feel fuller, it will move differently. Whenever I wear a suitsupply jacket I can feel it tight against my torso even though I absolutely know I've purchased the correct size. This is how it's cut.

Let's back it up and compare a sack suit to a suitsupply suit, maybe that's an easier frame of reference for you. Two suits can be sized appropriately for a person but if one is a sack cut it will look, move, feel differently. Which one likes or others like on them is a matter of preference.

post #30304 of 37395
Quote:
Originally Posted by doodledoc View Post
 


This is considered a drape jacket? I see the lines in the back, but this doesn't appear to be full at all to me. This jacket looks more like the SS jackets than any of the Formosa jackets. This jacket is better looking than all the other jackets in my opinion. Natural shoulders, nipped waist, good length, clean lines.


It does help that it's bespoke, made by a tailor (@jefferyd) for himself. There is some extra fullness in the chest, but the fit is impeccable.

The best part is that the guy who made this beautiful jacket doesn't even particularly like the drape cut. The relevant blog post, which contains lots of great thoughts and information about drape is here: http://tuttofattoamano.blogspot.com/2014/11/slim-suits-loosen-up-news-from-wall.html

post #30305 of 37395
Quote:
Originally Posted by turkoftheplains View Post
 


It does help that it's bespoke, made by a tailor (@jefferyd) for himself. There is some extra fullness in the chest, but the fit is impeccable.

The best part is that the guy who made this beautiful jacket doesn't even particularly like the drape cut (http://tuttofattoamano.blogspot.com/2014/11/slim-suits-loosen-up-news-from-wall.html)

I've actually seen that on PutThisOn.com. But I think LosRockets is right. I'm not going to fully understand this without seeing it in person.

post #30306 of 37395
Quote:
Originally Posted by doodledoc View Post
 

I've actually seen that on PutThisOn.com. But I think LosRockets is right. I'm not going to fully understand this without seeing it in person.


This helped quite a bit IMO. Explained how the back came out unexpectedly clean for a drape cut and you get a better idea of the chest with an oblique view: http://tuttofattoamano.blogspot.com/2009/02/drape-part-2.html

post #30307 of 37395
Quote:
Originally Posted by doodledoc View Post
 

When I say more natural in this case, I mean closer to his body type. The Formosa makes him look like a football player or body builder. The SS suits make him look more lean and fit. My guess is that his body type is closer to lean and fit.

 

It’s this assumption that a “properly fitting” jacket is one that is “close to” the body-type of the wearer that’s the problem, I think.  Hell, much classic British tailoring is all about making guys with apple-shaped torsos look like they have hourglass-shaped torsos. Successful tailoring improves how the wearer looks.

 

Moreover, as others have indicated, some jacket styles are intended to be snug fitting, others are intended to be more generously cut.   So, for example, if your chest measures 36 your actual jacket measurement would traditionally range from around 38 to around 40; the difference between body measurement and jacket measurement is most commonly called ‘allowance’ in the US, and I think ‘ease’ in the UK.  Might be worth a Google.

 

Although these days the choice is mostly just stylistic preference, the distinction was originally functional.  ‘Sports coats’ were just that:  meant for outdoor sports, which in England meant things like shooting and fishing, where a more generous cut was needed to allow for the range of motion required to swing a shotgun or cast a fly.  But even here there were (and are) exceptions:   riding jackets tend to be quite closely fitted for reasons I won’t bore you with, a convention reflected in the work of tailors with equestrian and military roots (think Huntsman, for example).

 

Embrace the diversity.

 

Cheers,

 

Ac

post #30308 of 37395
Quote:
Originally Posted by Academic2 View Post
 

 

It’s this assumption that a “properly fitting” jacket is one that is “close to” the body-type of the wearer that’s the problem, I think.  Hell, much classic British tailoring is all about making guys with apple-shaped torsos look like they have hourglass-shaped torsos. Successful tailoring improves how the wearer looks.

 

Moreover, as others have indicated, some jacket styles are intended to be snug fitting, others are intended to be more generously cut.   So, for example, if your chest measures 36 your actual jacket measurement would traditionally range from around 38 to around 40; the difference between body measurement and jacket measurement is most commonly called ‘allowance’ in the US, and I think ‘ease’ in the UK.  Might be worth a Google.

 

Although these days the choice is mostly just stylistic preference, the distinction was originally functional.  ‘Sports coats’ were just that:  meant for outdoor sports, which in England meant things like shooting and fishing, where a more generous cut was needed to allow for the range of motion required to swing a shotgun or cast a fly.  But even here there were (and are) exceptions:   riding jackets tend to be quite closely fitted for reasons I won’t bore you with, a convention reflected in the work of tailors with equestrian and military roots (think Huntsman, for example).

 

Embrace the diversity.

 

Cheers,

 

Ac


You're right. I do associate "properly fitting" jackets to one that is "close to" the body type of the wearer usually. In my mind, a snug fitting suit works well with skinny people or muscular people with lower body fat percentage. Also there are some exceptions, e.g., someone with small shoulders would benefit from structured shoulders and perhaps an elongated shoulder. But I don't think a sack suit would work on a really skinny person. E.g., a sack suit would probably not look all that great on Neil Patrick Harris.

 

Those Formosa jackets were not tailored to fit TweedyProf. Maybe after it goes to the tailor, it will look the jeffreyd jacket, but to my eye, the style didn't seem right. Also, if he was wearing suit pants or pants tailored to match that jacket, it would have looked perfect.

post #30309 of 37395

I just made a shocking discovery after some counting in my tie drawers: I don't own 100 ties.

 

I own 95. 

 

 

:(

post #30310 of 37395
Quote:
Originally Posted by doodledoc View Post
 

Maybe after it goes to the tailor, it will look the jeffreyd jacket, but to my eye, the style didn't seem right.

 

:(

 

style =/ fit

post #30311 of 37395
Quote:
Originally Posted by doodledoc View Post Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by venividivicibj View Post
 

There are different types of tailoring.

I think  with these types of comments you like a cleaner (closer to the body), more structured/less flow-y silhouette. That is fine.

 

That does not, however, mean that one who likes a more relaxed shoulder, a fuller chest, and  drape, is incorrect.


I'm not trying to say that I'm correct or anything. Honestly, I don't know very much. What I do know is from this and another forum, specifically the comments from fit pics threads (my own and others) and from the WAYWRN threads. The comments and pictures almost always favor the cleaner silhouette, which is why this discussion is confusing me.

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by doodledoc View Post Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Academic2 View Post
 

 

It’s this assumption that a “properly fitting” jacket is one that is “close to” the body-type of the wearer that’s the problem, I think.  Hell, much classic British tailoring is all about making guys with apple-shaped torsos look like they have hourglass-shaped torsos. Successful tailoring improves how the wearer looks.

 

Moreover, as others have indicated, some jacket styles are intended to be snug fitting, others are intended to be more generously cut.   So, for example, if your chest measures 36 your actual jacket measurement would traditionally range from around 38 to around 40; the difference between body measurement and jacket measurement is most commonly called ‘allowance’ in the US, and I think ‘ease’ in the UK.  Might be worth a Google.

 

Although these days the choice is mostly just stylistic preference, the distinction was originally functional.  ‘Sports coats’ were just that:  meant for outdoor sports, which in England meant things like shooting and fishing, where a more generous cut was needed to allow for the range of motion required to swing a shotgun or cast a fly.  But even here there were (and are) exceptions:   riding jackets tend to be quite closely fitted for reasons I won’t bore you with, a convention reflected in the work of tailors with equestrian and military roots (think Huntsman, for example).

 

Embrace the diversity.

 

Cheers,

 

Ac


You're right. I do associate "properly fitting" jackets to one that is "close to" the body type of the wearer usually. In my mind, a snug fitting suit works well with skinny people or muscular people with lower body fat percentage. Also there are some exceptions, e.g., someone with small shoulders would benefit from structured shoulders and perhaps an elongated shoulder. But I don't think a sack suit would work on a really skinny person. E.g., a sack suit would probably not look all that great on Neil Patrick Harris.

 

Those Formosa jackets were not tailored to fit TweedyProf. Maybe after it goes to the tailor, it will look the jeffreyd jacket, but to my eye, the style didn't seem right. Also, if he was wearing suit pants or pants tailored to match that jacket, it would have looked perfect.

 

 

 

You're not the first person to say they find the Formosa a bit boxy.  It's interesting that u prefer Turk's example above.  Hard to tell, but i suspect u like the fact the shoulders are quite sloping rather than 'soft'.  i think (could b wrong) the  Formosa block we see most of here is cut for squarish shoulders.    I accept that my own impressions are limited because they're principally based on 2d pics from the front in poor light.  Clearly the Formosa cut is well-regarded, and I know Greg's clothing  taste is pretty much impeccable.

post #30312 of 37395
Quote:
Originally Posted by sprout2 View Post
 

I just made a shocking discovery after some counting in my tie drawers: I don't own 100 ties.

 

I own 95. 

 

 

:(

 

I applaud the courage you show in admitting this publicly. 

 

Honesty is the first step in the path to recovery.

 

Cheers,

 

Ac

post #30313 of 37395

FWIW I don't universally love the Formosa cut we see most often here either, now I also haven't tried it on myself. We're allowed to have our preferences. This thread's namesake, IMO, actually looked better in Suit Supply and I think he was starting to feel the same way before his hiatus (though there are other reasons for that as well...and with him, well...nobody knows quite what he's thinking).

post #30314 of 37395
Thread Starter 

Greg, Murl, and newcomer look very, very good in Formosa, off the top of my head. I don't recall if V3 has some, but I think he does and I think it similarly flatters him. Stitchy looked good in Formosa, but better in Panta (though that was bespoke, so not a fair comparison). Formosa on Mr.Six looks good sometimes and other times less so. It definitely wasn't the best for Noodles. Those are all the big Formosa regulars I can think of, so it's definitely more hit than miss.

post #30315 of 37395
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pliny View Post




You're not the first person to say they find the Formosa a bit boxy.  It's interesting that u prefer Turk's example above.  Hard to tell, but i suspect u like the fact the shoulders are quite sloping rather than 'soft'.  i think (could b wrong) the  Formosa block we see most of here is cut for squarish shoulders.    I accept that my own impressions are limited because they're principally based on 2d pics from the front in poor light.  Clearly the Formosa cut is well-regarded, and I know Greg's clothing  taste is pretty much impeccable.


I favor sloping shoulders because i have them. I had to work pretty hard to get them too. I like natural instead of structured shoulders because it shows off the slope.
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