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Good Natured Advice Thread (improving a business wardrobe) - Page 1886

post #28276 of 37392
It is both strong and accurate.
post #28277 of 37392

Ok, I'm going to wear a bespoke three piece suit and tie with a pocket square on Monday, because apparently I'm wrong. I'll report back with feedback. Dress for the job you want, right?

post #28278 of 37392
I don't agree with that notion, MF. I think what Patrick is saying--and what I echo--is that most superiors (in Big Law, at least) are not going to turn around your tie/check the inside of your jacket to determine whether you are wearing any particular brand. I am not saying it cannot happen. Maybe there are instances here and there. But I have never, ever heard of anything similar happening. FWIW, many Big Law firms are business casual now. I am fairly sure Cravath is one of the only remaining Big Law firms in NYC to be strictly "business formal" (other than certain depos, court, etc.).

So I do not really get what you are trying to say MF? I don't think anyone is recommending to show up in a three-piece suit and horse bit loafers when your superiors are wearing business casual. But I do not think you are restricted from buying a pair of Rota / Panta / whatever trousers, because a superior is going to strip off your pants, look at the label, google the brand, and fire you.

Have you watched a few '80s attorney flicks, and formed an opinion on this? If you talked about this issue anecdotally, I would have let it pass. But you rigidly adhere to your opinions as though they are "gospel"--as a previous user has said. I work at a mid-size, stuffy firm, which I like for the reason it is stuffy. We have to wear suits every day. If anything, I have had a few partners bring me along to court, depositions, and the like exactly because I dress more professionally than some of the other associates in my section.

Now, banking--from what I have heard, that is a different story.

TL;DR--quit talking about your anecdotes as though they are the gospel; couch your statements in a way that is not so absolute.
Edited by Newcomer - 7/18/15 at 7:35am
post #28279 of 37392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sudonihm View Post

I always have tried to dress in line with my clients expectations, or more accurately, slightly above my clients expectations. For some time as an associate, your clients will likely be the partners with whom you work. My advice is don't dress like Donald Trump unless you work for Donald Trump, which is a far less eloquent way of saying the same thing as Europrep above.

Never dress like Donald Trump. Also, never work for Donald Trump.
post #28280 of 37392

I wish academia were "stuffier", so my colleagues would dress better, and pay more, so it would be easier to dress better.

post #28281 of 37392

The problem is that @Monkeyface has a tendency to form opinions based on very limited data samples, pronounce them as the gospel truth and renounce anyone who disagrees as an idiot.  I may be wrong, but I seem to recall MF is in his 20's and in the first couple years of a banking  position in London.  It's unfathomable to me that he is relying upon his limited sample of knowledge to tell successful professionals at other organizations and in the U.S. that they are wrong regarding proper dress.  It's even more unfathomable when considering some of the people he is arguing with are partners and owners of successful law firms and other organizations that have been working for 20-plus years in these professions. 

 

Open up your worldview, MF, there's lots more out there for you to see and learn.

post #28282 of 37392
Quote:
Originally Posted by New Shoes1 View Post
 

The problem is that @Monkeyface has a tendency to form opinions based on very limited data samples, pronounce them as the gospel truth and renounce anyone who disagrees as an idiot.  I may be wrong, but I seem to recall MF is in his 20's and in the first couple years of a banking  position in London.  It's unfathomable to me that he is relying upon his limited sample of knowledge to tell successful professionals at other organizations and in the U.S. that they are wrong regarding proper dress.  It's even more unfathomable when considering some of the people he is arguing with are partners and owners of successful law firms and other organizations that have been working for 20-plus years in these professions. 

 

Open up your worldview, MF, there's lots more out there for you to see and learn.

 

+1

But.... when I was in my early 20's

I thought the world was black and white

That others were wrong and I was always right

And anyone who didn't agree, I would fight

:)

post #28283 of 37392

Come on guys, it would've been much more fun if you went along with it, but now the shtick is up. It would've been hilarious if he'd asked Leonard Logsdail to stitch black lapel labels on his suits.

 

@semperexcelsius I'll be good natured. I've never seen anyone check for labels or google someone's brand or whatever. You can wear whatever you like, as long as it's not too flashy and more than a standard deviation away from your peers. I guess one exception could be watches, as people will notice when you're wearing a very expensive watch.

 

Don't wear anything with very obvious branding, don't flaunt it, and don't tell people how much things cost or where you got it when they ask. Just say off ebay or something like that. Be aware you or someone else will spill stuff on your clothing, and don't be upset when that happens. They don't know how much you've paid for it. The way you dress can have a relatively minor impact on how clients perceive you, so it can't hurt to spend a couple of minutes to think about what you want to portray when the time comes. 

 

Use your common sense and you'll be more than fine in any company. 

post #28284 of 37392
Re: funeral attire, I have always gone with a charcoal suit, white shirt and black tie. Seems appropriately somber for such an occasion. I have zero interest in buying a suit to be worn solely for funerals. I think the practical reality in today's world is that people wear their best suit or jacket to something like a funeral. At least in the USA, I would be stunned if anyone was called out for wearing charcoal (or even navy) in lieu of black.
post #28285 of 37392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkeyface View Post

I did preface my advice with the fact that I was talking about high finance/big law. If you're in the finance department of a regular f500 for example, things won't be nearly as strict.

Sorry, what's the difference between high finance vs Fortune 500 finance?
post #28286 of 37392
I was assuming it to be private equity/hedge funds but I have no clue what is going on here anymore.
post #28287 of 37392
Quote:
Originally Posted by venividivicibj View Post


Sorry, what's the difference between high finance vs Fortune 500 finance?

 

High finance is a douchey name for investment banking/private equity/hedge funds/certain types of asset management, etc. Retail/commercial banking and private wealth management is usually not meant when one says high finance. I think it's a stupid term, but there isn't really a better one. 

 

The work you do in the finance department of a regular company is usually of a very different nature. Some people call it the 'real economy'. Some firms do have m&a type teams as well and treasuries that work together with investment banks on debt and equity issues, so there is some overlap. 

post #28288 of 37392

He's probably referring to buy-side gigs and bulge bracket/ boutique banking versus budgeting and forecasting positions in F500. 

post #28289 of 37392
Quote:
Originally Posted by JezeC View Post
 

He's probably referring to buy-side jobs and bulge bracket banking versus budgeting and forecasting positions in F500. 

 

yep

post #28290 of 37392
Quote:
Originally Posted by TweedyProf View Post
 

I wish academia were "stuffier", so my colleagues would dress better, and pay more, so it would be easier to dress better.


Academia is plenty stuffy, just not when it comes to dressing professionally (in the CM sense of the word). I know you know that, just sayin'....

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