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Good Natured Advice Thread (improving a business wardrobe) - Page 1849

post #27721 of 37392
Quote:
Originally Posted by unbelragazzo View Post

semperexcelcius What is it that you hope to have in your shirts? For them to last a long time? To have access to a wide selection of fabrics? For them to fit you in a particular way? A certain kind of collar shape or construction? My advice is to think about those things first. There is no "best" shirtmaker or tailor or shoemaker or whatever.

Pretty sure you can change durability by changing the fabric, and any good shirtmaker should be able to make it as close- or loose-fitting as you want, as well as make any collar you want.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TweedyProf View Post

Stayed out of the shirt discussion but a few thoughts: if your budget is that much for your first set of shirts then why not pick two or three makers and compare with a small batch from each. Id be interested in a compare and contrast. I think what Kulata means and Unbel too is that no shirt is going to be "perfect" even in bespoke and different shirts can exemplify different virtues.

Also if you've never had shirts made it takes a while to dial in your fit/style. For example deciding on collar height which can be a fine point in terms of an ideal. Also collar shape. Why get six shirts made all at once? I'm still making adjustments to my collars, though admittedly, it's small returns with each adjustment at this point.

I know you keep refining after pretty much any shirt, but my feeling is that since Kabbaz does samples (often 2 or more), you get a pretty good feel for what you want/what you'll get after the samples. Plus, he'll still make any minute adjustments to the final shirts as needed.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkeyface View Post

A machine made shirt will never be as beautiful as a handmade one. The subtle shirring of the sleeves that's only possible with hand sewing, the handmade buttonholes, the decorative stitches on the shoulders and yoke that look awesome... etc, etc.

You can go to Naples and get very good bespoke shirts for $150, without a 6 minimum order. The 6 minimum is preposterous. That shows he isn't interested in developing a lasting relationship with the customer, but rather get the quick 6k. What happens if you don't like the collar, or some fabrics shrink more than expected? Will he replace them for free?

Btw, many European tailors don't answer email. Just give them a call. Much quicker.

How can you definitively say that? Did you consider the fact that Kabbaz's shirts aren't even in the same league as what you think of when you think of machine stitching? He wrote a long post somewhere about why he doesn't hand stitch.

 

You don't want to be comparing the cost of a Neapolitan shirt to one made in the US. Apples and oranges, and, like @The Noodles kindly pointed out, it's going to cost $600+ to go in the first place.

 

From what I can tell, if you're still not satisfied with the final shirt or he otherwise messed up in some small way, Kabbaz will fix it at his own cost (see Manton's posts linked above). You should be able to like the collar if you do 3 or 4 sample fittings, and Kabbaz is a master of shirt shrinkage—I think his limits on acceptable shrinking are like half that of most bespoke shirtmakers.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkeyface View Post


Why would it be easier? You only make the pattern once. The fact that he wants a 6 order minimum means that he's spreading the costs of creating the pattern out over multiple shirts. Hence, he's running less risk of you not returning, as he's made enough to cover the costs of creating the pattern+shirts+profits.

A tailor that has a 1 or 2 order minimum is running more risk of you not returning, as he can't spread out the cost of creating the patern over that many shirts. Hence, he's more inclined to make an awesome shirt for you, as he wants you to return so that he can make up the costs of creating the pattern.

Also, a lot of hand stitches are impossible to replicate by machine, so how is he going to do sleeve shirring for example? His collars look like stiff cardboards to me as well. Probably heavy lining and fusing.

When it comes to shirts the Italians make the most comfortable ones. The British ones with cardboard collars and cuffs are not very comfortable. Try wearing a shirt+tie with those british collars while sitting behind your desk for 12+ hours a day. Not very comfortable.

He doesn't care about one time customers, and that's probably why he makes the minimum so high—so he doesn't have to deal with the "shirt tourists" who will fork over $1k for one shirt and never return. He cares about developing long term relationships.

 

He can make the collars however you want, although he's stated he prefers fused for more formal shirts to be worn with ties, and unfused for more casual collars. He has also stated he uses lining that's about 8-12x more expensive than what most makers use.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kulata View Post


Any advice that instructs someone to go to another country to make shirts should not be taken seriously lol8[1].gif



After reading this post by Kabbaz, I kinda like the dude
lol8[1].gif

Yeah, I mean if I'm ever on a trip, I'll stop by some places, but I'm not going just for clothes.

 

He does seem to have a good sense of humor.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuP View Post


Do tell more

I'll be in Europe in August (Paris, Normandy, London), and I have an appointment with a certain Mr. Templeman. He's coming to NY in October and should have my sample pair ready by then, will make final adjustments and ship the final pair when complete.

 

Starting off pretty basic—black cap-toe Oxfords (I'm boring, I know)

post #27722 of 37392
Quote:
Originally Posted by TM79 View Post


I wouldn't get caught up in the fine details. He might be able to make a good shirt but he can't make a good analogy for shit lol

Yeah, someone told him a Lambo wasn't a mil, but the general idea still holds.

post #27723 of 37392
Quote:
Originally Posted by semperexcelsius View Post
 

Pretty sure you can change durability by changing the fabric, and any good shirtmaker should be able to make it as close- or loose-fitting as you want, as well as make any collar you want.

 

I know you keep refining after pretty much any shirt, but my feeling is that since Kabbaz does samples (often 2 or more), you get a pretty good feel for what you want/what you'll get after the samples. Plus, he'll still make any minute adjustments to the final shirts as needed.

 

How can you definitively say that? Did you consider the fact that Kabbaz's shirts aren't even in the same league as what you think of when you think of machine stitching? He wrote a long post somewhere about why he doesn't hand stitch.

 

You don't want to be comparing the cost of a Neapolitan shirt to one made in the US. Apples and oranges, and, like @The Noodles kindly pointed out, it's going to cost $600+ to go in the first place.

 

From what I can tell, if you're still not satisfied with the final shirt or he otherwise messed up in some small way, Kabbaz will fix it at his own cost (see Manton's posts linked above). You should be able to like the collar if you do 3 or 4 sample fittings, and Kabbaz is a master of shirt shrinkage—I think his limits on acceptable shrinking are like half that of most bespoke shirtmakers.

 

He doesn't care about one time customers, and that's probably why he makes the minimum so high—so he doesn't have to deal with the "shirt tourists" who will fork over $1k for one shirt and never return. He cares about developing long term relationships.

 

He can make the collars however you want, although he's stated he prefers fused for more formal shirts to be worn with ties, and unfused for more casual collars. He has also stated he uses lining that's about 8-12x more expensive than what most makers use.

 

Yeah, I mean if I'm ever on a trip, I'll stop by some places, but I'm not going just for clothes.

 

He does seem to have a good sense of humor.

 

I'll be in Europe in August (Paris, Normandy, London), and I have an appointment with a certain Mr. Templeman. He's coming to NY in October and should have my sample pair ready by then, will make final adjustments and ship the final pair when complete.

 

Starting off pretty basic—black cap-toe Oxfords (I'm boring, I know)

 

So instead of $2 lining he uses $16 lining?

 

Can he make handrolled edges by machine?

 

Can he subtly shirr the sleeves and create those little pin prick decorative stitches on the shoulder and yoke by machine?

 

Can he make make fine handmade buttonholes by machine?

 

 

 

No, no and no.

post #27724 of 37392
post #27725 of 37392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkeyface View Post

So instead of $2 lining he uses $16 lining?

Can he make handrolled edges by machine? Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)



Can he subtly shirr the sleeves and create those little pin prick decorative stitches on the shoulder and yoke by machine?



Can he make make fine handmade buttonholes by machine?



No, no and no.
What if those non-functional details doesn't mean much to him and he only wants a durable machine made shirt at a premium he can afford? You recently bashed hand made shirts not too long ago.
post #27726 of 37392
Quote:
Originally Posted by kulata View Post


What if those non-functional details doesn't mean much to him and he only wants a durable machine made shirt at a premium he can afford? You recently bashed hand made shirts not too long ago.

 

Nope, I bashed bad handmade. At his prices he can get the best hand made the world has to offer. 

 

bad handmade<machine made<good handmade

post #27727 of 37392
Quote:
Originally Posted by justinkapur View Post


That's awesome. So now your testing them and will let them know where to adjust and then they make for you? How long is the overall process?

Test shoes take 2 months or so. I just received mine this week, so I can't say how long it takes for the final shoe. But he can do some amazing things.

 

post #27728 of 37392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkeyface View Post
 

 

Nope, I bashed bad handmade. At his prices he can get the best hand made the world has to offer. 

 

bad handmade<machine made<good handmade

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kulata View Post


What if those non-functional details doesn't mean much to him and he only wants a durable machine made shirt at a premium he can afford? You recently bashed hand made shirts not too long ago.

The most important thing is fit—all of those other things are just bonuses, if that's what you want (which I may not and others may not want).

 

btw, I found the post where he discusses the topic: http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/forum/showthread.php?51092-Hand-Work-on-Shirts-What-is-it&p=312145#post312145

post #27729 of 37392
Did you feel that @Monkeyface? It was a cyber hug! I think you need one biggrin.gif
post #27730 of 37392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkeyface View Post


I'm not buying into the bullshit. It's easy to hide behind "prices are not discussed in my circles" (which is false). I don't see him actually justifying his prices, in fact he's refusing to justify it. That tells me enough. Just a marketing trick.

Whats funny, is he doesn't have to justify his prices. I'm not sure why you keep attacking him/his work...Can you show me posts where his actual customers have stated that he wasn't worth it/the garments didn't fit?

post #27731 of 37392
Quote:
Originally Posted by semperexcelsius View Post
 

 

The most important thing is fit—all of those other things are just bonuses, if that's what you want (which I may not and others may not want).

 

btw, I found the post where he discusses the topic: http://www.askandyaboutclothes.com/forum/showthread.php?51092-Hand-Work-on-Shirts-What-is-it&p=312145#post312145

 

So he basically states that machine made is cheaper because it's faster, and that hand made is more comfortable and is able to shirr the sleeves.

post #27732 of 37392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkeyface View Post

So he basically states that machine made is cheaper because it's faster, and that hand made is more comfortable and is able to shirr the sleeves.
Give up this hand made business. If you want Kabbaz and can pay for Kabbaz, please do and post pics so I get to see a Kabbaz shirt.
post #27733 of 37392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkeyface View Post
 

 

So he basically states that machine made is cheaper because it's faster, and that hand made is more comfortable and is able to shirr the sleeves.

You realize he said "advocates of hand sewn shirts say..." right?

post #27734 of 37392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkeyface View Post
 

 

So he basically states that machine made is cheaper because it's faster, and that hand made is more comfortable and is able to shirr the sleeves.

Sure, if you're only focusing on one of his points and ignoring the other 25.

 

What is the point you're trying to make? I'm failing to see it, other than "I HATE KABBAZ"

 

Your argument has switched around many times.

post #27735 of 37392
Quote:
Originally Posted by venividivicibj View Post
 

Whats funny, is he doesn't have to justify his prices. I'm not sure why you keep attacking him/his work...Can you show me posts where his actual customers have stated that he wasn't worth it/the garments didn't fit?

 

Everyone needs to justify their prices. If I ask a tailor why he charges me that much and he gives me a bullshit answer like that I walk away. If he instead explains why he needs to charge so much more than the next, where my money is going, what the whole process is, how many hours it takes to make a shirt/suit etc. I'll be able to make a more informed decision. I'm interested in clothing, of course I want to know the details! 

 

You don't buy something just because it was in a commercial, right? Just because LV charges a shitload for their stuff and no one who buys it complains about it, doesn't mean it's actually good/well made product.

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