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Good Natured Advice Thread (improving a business wardrobe) - Page 1733

post #25981 of 37392
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibaldleach View Post


See, that's where we philosophically differ (at least I think we do). How we define rules also matters here too. 

it's definitely fair to say "I don't care about XYZ arbitrary tradition from 50 years ago that has no basis in aesthetics" or to broadly not care too much about traditions that are not based in aesthetics. Doing so, however, doesn't deny that those traditions exist to begin with. I also think it is fair to be aware of certain traditions but believe one looks better by ignoring them. Again, it's a case of learning a rule and then deciding to break it. I suspect some people also just dislike the term "rule." The world doesn't end if you break a rule of men's clothing. It's not like breaking the law or doing something immoral. If someone asks my opinion on something in real life, I'll share it, but I'm never going to criticize someone for not dressing in accordance with what I regard as rules of classic menswear. But I'd still argue that certain premises in classic menswear are more correct than others.

 

Yes, we differ philosophically on this matter. I'm glad we can do so in an amicable way.

 

I think the crux of our disagreement is that I'm far less convinced that the assertion that peaked lapels are wrong with a SB odd jacket has any basis in tradition. I suspect it's a much more modern convention that has formed as we've become more conservative in an effort to maintain a style or form of dress that we perceive to be slipping away. We, as a community, are more self-conscious now than I suspect people were back in the day. This leads us to condense a set of rules to keep us from straying too far from the received ideal. I also think that StyleForum has a very definite set of rules and norms of its own. As I've spent more time here that has become clear. Some are refreshing in the sense that they possibly make things clear for me. Others seem to me purely arbitrary and I find myself rejecting them. Mostly, I think the distinction is made based on how closely such a rule matches either my own preconception or fills a void in my understanding, or not.

 

Finally, StyFo is a conservative place. It might be more prudent in the present case to assert that peaked lapels should not be worn on a single breasted odd jacket is a StyleForum rule, rather than one that pertains to a wider community.

 

Did I beat that to death yet? :slayer::p

post #25982 of 37392
archi : I can't read all that. Gimme a summary.

Edit - NVM. I read it. No need for summary.
post #25983 of 37392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy57 View Post

Yes, we differ philosophically on this matter. I'm glad we can do so in an amicable way.

I think the crux of our disagreement is that I'm far less convinced that the assertion that peaked lapels are wrong with a SB odd jacket has any basis in tradition. I suspect it's a much more modern convention that has formed as we've become more conservative in an effort to maintain a style or form of dress that we perceive to be slipping away. We, as a community, are more self-conscious now than I suspect people were back in the day. This leads us to condense a set of rules to keep us from straying too far from the received ideal. I also think that StyleForum has a very definite set of rules and norms of its own. As I've spent more time here that has become clear. Some are refreshing in the sense that they possibly make things clear for me. Others seem to me purely arbitrary and I find myself rejecting them. Mostly, I think the distinction is made based on how closely such a rule matches either my own preconception or fills a void in my understanding, or not.

Finally, StyFo is a conservative place. It might be more prudent in the present case to assert that peaked lapels should not be worn on a single breasted odd jacket is a StyleForum rule, rather than one that pertains to a wider community.

Did I beat that to death yet? icon_gu_b_slayer%5B1%5D.giftongue.gif

StyleForum Rules >>>> All other rules in all other lands.
post #25984 of 37392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy57 View Post

Yes, we differ philosophically on this matter. I'm glad we can do so in an amicable way.

I think the crux of our disagreement is that I'm far less convinced that the assertion that peaked lapels are wrong with a SB odd jacket has any basis in tradition. I suspect it's a much more modern convention that has formed as we've become more conservative in an effort to maintain a style or form of dress that we perceive to be slipping away. We, as a community, are more self-conscious now than I suspect people were back in the day. This leads us to condense a set of rules to keep us from straying too far from the received ideal. I also think that StyleForum has a very definite set of rules and norms of its own. As I've spent more time here that has become clear. Some are refreshing in the sense that they possibly make things clear for me. Others seem to me purely arbitrary and I find myself rejecting them. Mostly, I think the distinction is made based on how closely such a rule matches either my own preconception or fills a void in my understanding, or not.

Finally, StyFo is a conservative place. It might be more prudent in the present case to assert that peaked lapels should not be worn on a single breasted odd jacket is a StyleForum rule, rather than one that pertains to a wider community.

Did I beat that to death yet? icon_gu_b_slayer%5B1%5D.giftongue.gif

Likewise, am glad this can be amicable. This is supposed to be a fun hobby after all. I suspect that SF is probably more conservative than the average suit wearer from 50-80 years ago but is probably less conservative than the greatest rules sticklers from those days. I'll admit that I find myself erring on the conservative side of things (as is probably obvious).

I definitely wouldn't put "no peak lapels with odd jackets" in a top 10 list of most important rules (hell, it wouldn't make the top 20), but I do think there is some tradition and logic behind it. It also may very well be partly a modern thing. I don't think anyone would blink at one wearing a peak lapel suit 50 years ago but now it has taken on more of a dandified connotation. This probably spills over a bit into the odd jacket discussion too.
post #25985 of 37392
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuP View Post


StyleForum Rules >>>> All other rules in all other lands.

 

You know that pants are optional under SF rules?

post #25986 of 37392
Quote:
Originally Posted by archibaldleach View Post

Likewise, am glad this can be amicable. This is supposed to be a fun hobby after all. I suspect that SF is probably more conservative than the average suit wearer from 50-80 years ago but is probably less conservative than the greatest rules sticklers from those days. I'll admit that I find myself erring on the conservative side of things (as is probably obvious).

I definitely wouldn't put "no peak lapels with odd jackets" in a top 10 list of most important rules (hell, it wouldn't make the top 20), but I do think there is some tradition and logic behind it. It also may very well be partly a modern thing. I don't think anyone would blink at one wearing a peak lapel suit 50 years ago but now it has taken on more of a dandified connotation. This probably spills over a bit into the odd jacket discussion too.
So where did you pull the rule from then?
post #25987 of 37392
Quote:
Originally Posted by kulata View Post

So where did you pull the rule from then?

I realize this answer isn't helpful, but I can't pinpoint one particular source without spending way more time than I want to on this. After a certain amount of time learning about this stuff, it becomes difficult to remember exactly where I read something for the first time / mix of prose vs. photographs vs. film, etc.
post #25988 of 37392
Quote:
Originally Posted by GuP View Post

archi : I can't read all that. Gimme a summary.

Edit - NVM. I read it. No need for summary.

I love everything about this ADHD reply.
post #25989 of 37392

The owner of my company wears peak lapel for suit and sport coats.  His tailor is a well respected and well known tailor out of NYC.  I was with him one day at the shop, and the tailor didn't hesitate about putting peak lapel on a sport coat, but did tell my boss he was crazy for wanting 3 buttons with his peaks.  He said peaks should always have two buttons.  

post #25990 of 37392
Quote:
Originally Posted by europrep View Post

The owner of my company wears peak lapel for suit and sport coats.  His tailor is a well respected and well known tailor out of NYC.  I was with him one day at the shop, and the tailor didn't hesitate about putting peak lapel on a sport coat, but did tell my boss he was crazy for wanting 3 buttons with his peaks.  He said peaks should always have two buttons.  

And even that is wrong, as three button peak lapel suits were quite common in the 1920s-30s, judging from the drawings.
post #25991 of 37392
CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 90

post #25992 of 37392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkeyface View Post


And even that is wrong, as three button peak lapel suits were quite common in the 1920s-30s, judging from the drawings.

 

Are you assuming the historic pictures are gospel?  I take this tailor's word over you, me, or pictures.  

post #25993 of 37392
Quote:
Originally Posted by europrep View Post
 

 

Are you assuming the historic pictures are gospel?  I take this tailor's word over you, me, or pictures.  

 

I'm assuming that historical pictures have at least some truth to them, otherwise we might as well do away with the whole field of history, right? Secondary and teriary sources can be good sources as well. Anyways, here's something more recent. This looks like a three button peak lapel:

 

And here we have a 3r2 peak lapel:

 

Another 3r2 peak lapel:

 

 

Hercule Poirot:

CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 90

 

Douglas Fairbanks with a 3r2, the list goes on and on:

 

From a dude's blogpost about 1930s suits: http://www.gentlemansgazette.com/1930-fashion-style-mens-suits/ 

 


Edited by Monkeyface - 6/23/15 at 11:26am
post #25994 of 37392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Claghorn View Post

re: Ring

A member here...I think @sprout2...was talking about setting up a proxy service for Japanese brands. Might be worth it to duck the upcharge from KoC and Armoury.

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caustic Man View Post
 


This might be something I would be interested in but I'd have to get an idea of how much I could save off of The Armory's prices. The simple fact is that I wouldn't buy one of those jackets starting at $1000 because at that price I'd start to wonder why I didn't do bespoke.

 

I should really check my notifications more often. And start reading this thread (it looks very interesting...and massive!)

 

As a basic yardstick, a Ring Jacket SC in their in-house fabrics (Creamy Waffle, Balloon, etc.) could be had for USD 600 (before shipping, etc.) The special cloths and one-offs like deadstock Carlo Barbera fabrics start to range from 780 USD to 950 USD, with north of 1000 USD for some unusual, needlessly luxurious items. The midpoint for a suit is 800USD, before getting into things like S140s, Mohair, and (again) Carlo Barbera.

 

The dollar is extremely strong to the yen now, plus Ring's offerings are reasonably priced in the first place.

 

I'm kind of kicking around for a side project to do, so if there is real (not tire-kicking) interest in proxying SCs in your size, I am happy to facilitate with door-to-door, tracked and insured courier.

post #25995 of 37392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Monkeyface View Post
 

 

I'm assuming that historical pictures have at least some truth to them, otherwise we might as well do away with the whole field of history, right? Secondary and teriary sources can be good sources as well. Anyways, here's something more recent. This looks like a three button peak lapel:

 

No doubt historical pictures can be very useful.  I was merely saying gents in the 20-30s could have been expressing themselves outside the general rules as well, so it can be misleading without knowing context or intent.  I am purely going on one person's word, I just happen to trust that person.  

 

Side note, I can't tell if any of those pictures are 3 button.  

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