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Good Natured Advice Thread (improving a business wardrobe) - Page 899

post #13471 of 37396
I second PCK. Noodles needs a plan. Like a set plan, with a time frame and everything. Will make the thread less haywire, but we all must make sacrifices.
post #13472 of 37396
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Noodles View Post
 

No. I would just get it by just paying for it. A gentleman does not go by any other means. 

 

...plus, what they did in that video is degrading. If you want this, do this. FU!

 

Lol. How is it degrading. Every single person that allowed their footage to be used looked like they had a blast. It looked awesome. It makes me want to go join the climbing gym in town. 

post #13473 of 37396

@sugarbutch

Dearest Mr. P*****,

I am happy to inform you that your most recent purchase with the Noodles & Co. has been shipped. It was a pleasure doing business with your Mr. P******.

 

Best regards,

 

Noodles & Co. 

post #13474 of 37396
icon_gu_b_slayer[1].gif
post #13475 of 37396
Feel I have to share this Manton post on suit silhouette, it's one of the reasons why this forum will always owe him and people like him a great deal for sharing knowledge. The original was deleted.

I am also highlighting where he differentiates a draped chest from a swelled chest since it is relevant to the Polo suit fiasco and they are often confused.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Eustace Tilley View Post

Is this it?:





Overall, a silhouette may be lean or full; structured or soft; elongating or "widening"; smooth (or "clean") or draped (or "rumpled"). Structure v. softness generally depends on the type of materials used, and on stitching techniques. E.g., a structured suit will use more padding in the shoulders, stiffer canvas in the chest, etc. There are certain hand stitching techniques that go into making a soft suit which actual tailors have described in detail, so I defer to them.


Descending to specifics, we may divide the coat into five basic parts: shoulders, gorge, chest, waist, and skirt.


Shoulders may be built up or "natural." I put natural in quotes because there is no such thing as a truly natural, unpadded shoulder. That’s a cardigan sweater. But a “natural shoulder” suit has very thin, soft padding, and little of it. Furthermore, shoulders may be more or less sloped from the collar to the scye (armhole). Sometimes they are even concave; that is, they curve gently downward from the collar, and then rise again at the sleevehead. Further still, they may be “roped”: that is, the sleevehead may be raised up a tad from the shoulder line. Another refinement is to make sleevehead a more "oval" shape, rather than conventionally round. Then there is width: true natural shoulders tend to fall exactly on a man’s true shoulder-line; but some structured shoulders also do this as well. Or shoulders may be “extended” by a half and inch or so. This can help the "drape" (excess cloth over the chest and blades) hang more elegantly, but it's not essential: not all draped coats have extended shoulders. Also, tall guys, guys with slight chests and shoulders, and guys with big heads benefit from an extended shoulder. On muscular guys, it is "gilding the lily." Any more than a half inch, however (depending on a dude’s size), is costumey and not generally done.


The “gorge” is where the lapels meet the collar of the coat. This may be high (collarbone or so) or lower, in the upper ribs. The width of the lapels is also a factor to consider, though there is no direct relationship: a coat with a high gorge may have wide or narrow lapels, and vice versa. Wide lapels tend to "widen" the silhouette, and are thus not recommended for heavy guys or short guys. Though, as always, there are exceptions. No one would call the average Neapolitan male "tall," and yet he wears what is essentially a widening silhouette with great elegance.


The chest of a coat may be full (swelled) or lean (shallow); and draped or clean. Basically, on a jacket with a lean chest, the outer edges of the jacket are pretty close to your actual torso. A swelled chest means there’s extra cloth that stands apart from your chest, making it look bigger (wider). Swell is generally convex: billowing out in a gentle curve from the waist (or bottom of the ribs) and then back in under the armscye. "Swell" is not be confused with drape. A really good tailor can make a chest that fits close to your torso at the sides, but has some drape (excess vertical folds of cloth) in the hollow area below your collarbone. Other tailors will make the cloth here lie completely flat and clean.


Three things about the waist of a coat: is there one, and if so where is it, and how dramatic is it? Few completely undarted, waistless jackets are made any more, but they exist. Most coats have a waist of some degree. Tailors can alter the look of a coat by simply raising or lowering the "latitude" at which the jacket’s waist is “suppressed.” Then there is the question of degree. Most suits today have reasonably subtle waist suppression, but a few have a really pinched waist. Also: the suppression may be acute at only one point (like this: } { ) or else over a longer span (essentially like this: ) ( ). The placement of the waist also determines the placement of the buttons. This is known as the “button stance.” The middle button (or top button on a 2-button coat) -- i.e., the button that you actually fasten -- should be positioned on the exact latitude of the coat's waist. Fashion houses do not always follow this rule, but classic RTW manufactuerers and bespoke tailors virtually all do.


Skirt: this is the part of the jacket that hangs below the waist. It may be full or sit reasonably close to the hips. Also, the coat front edges that fall below the waist button may hang straight, or be flared away from the button. (SB only. Only one edge of a DB skirt front is visible, and it should hang relatively straight.)


Before I describe the few truly identifiably silhouettes, I must say two things: 1) the above points are just the basics; there are a zillion ways that one coat can be different from another, so that truly the number of silhouettes that are possible are infinite; 2) (this one may well get me flamed) well dressed guys and the bespoke obsessed tend to prefer certain things: natural shoulder on the shoulder line; high gorge; high armholes; draped but close chest; high waist and button stance; medium waist suppression (err on the side of more rather than less); close skirt with flared away front edges. But many very well dressed men do not like some or all of these things.


Now, there are a handful of famous silhouettes. The Scholte/Anderson & Sheppard/Neapolitan/Flusser cut is one. This was invented by the Dutchman Frederick Scholte, who perfected in the late 1920s, and died in the 1950s. This is a natural shoulder, minimal padding, gentle downward slope, no rope. A&S and Flusser extend the shoulder by about a half inch. The Neapolitans generally do not. The Neapolitans also add that famous sleevehead (a much larger opening at the top of the sleeve is carefully hand-pleated into a much smaller scye). Both have a pretty generous drape in the chest and over the shoulder blades. Both use minimal padding and very soft canvas. Waist: A&S and Flusser: 1/2" below the natural waist; the Neapolitan waist is often a little higher. Flusser has a unique "not quite American, not quite English" shape to the waist; plagerizing from A Harris: "straight (diagonal, and actually slightly concave) line from the bottom of the armhole to the waist, and back out, again in a straight (in actuality, slightly convex) line to the bottom of the jacket." All these, however, have close skirts, but the Neapolitans flare the front edges more. This silhouette really shines in DB, 6 on 2.


Also in this category:


Attolini: Soft like the true Naples cut, with the famous sleevehead, but much, much leaner. Almost a mean between Kiton and Brioni. Super high gorge and waist -- probably the highest there are in RTW.


Isaia: Much like Kiton. Less dramatically draped. Less "rounded" chest.


Borrelli: A more "widening" silhouette. Buttons spaced apart more, wider lapels, etc. Otherwise, pretty classically Neapolitan.


The classic “Roman” silhouette” as exemplified by Brioni: Structured shoulders, on the natural shoulderline. An obsessively clean and structured chest. A very lean silhouette overall. Close and flared skirt. A great SB, 2 button silhouette.


The Roman "soft" suit (Carceni, Raphael NYC): what I described above as the "ideal" bespoke silhouette: natural shoulder on the shoulder line; sloped, concave shoulder with a slightly roped sleevehead, high gorge; high armholes; draped but close chest; high waist and button stance; medium waist suppression; close skirt with flared away front edges.


Milan (Barbera, A. Caraceni): tends to be a shorter coat overall. Shoulders about halfway between Naples and Rome; "oval" shape, and roped, more often than not. High gorge and armhole. Soft construction, but clean without a lot of drape. Medium waist height and suppression; subtle skirt. "2 1/2" button stance is prefered; overall leaner than the Neapolitan.


English military (e.g., Kiglour, Dege, Logsdail) or "equestrian" (Hunstman): very enlongating overall; structured shoulder on the natural line. Roped (Kilgour, Logsdail). Lots of structure on the chest. Clean chest. Very lean; high gorge, high waist. Wasp waist, flared skirt, one-button stance (Huntsman). Narrowish lapels, true three button (i.e., two to button) stance (Kilgour).


If there were such a thing as "typical Savile Row" it would be: natural shoulder on the shoulder line, roped; chest with a little swell and a little drape; high gorge and waist; lapels slightly narrower than halfway across the jacket's chest; lapels gently curved from the waist button to the gorge; pinched waist; flared skirt; side vents; 3 piece SB 2 button. Many of the "second tier" tailors make exactly this, and it looks good on a lot of guys. This is basically the Gieves and Poole silhouette. (I know Gieves is a big maker of uniforms, and so perhaps should be in the "military" section, but their silhouette is a little softer than those mentioned above. Check out the picture of Robert Gieves in Roetzel's book -- can't remember the page).


French: this one is hard, but I take Cifonelli as my guide: lots of structure, high everything, but an unusual “columnar” waist: the suppression starts very high, “straightens out,” continues to about the hips, then the skirt flares out slightly. Odd. I don’t see this anywhere else. The French also tend to make smaller (narrower) than average lapels, too. Cifonelli and Cristiani certainly do, at any rate. And the "wrap" of the DB is smaller. Beyond this, I’m not sure there is a typical “Paris” silhouette. The French are always being knocked for the Cardin et al supertight suits of the 70s, but that was a long time ago. Lanvin, Hermes &c. make (or sell) pretty conventional silhouettes if you ask me. I don’t know about Arnys.


The “Sack”: now made pretty much only by J Press. No darts, a straight hanging coat with practically no waist, natural shoulders (but huge armholes) a rumpled chest, and a full skirt with no flair.


Then there is the typical “Ameican” silhouette: bland shoulder, chest not really clean, not really draped, slight waist suppression, straight skirt, two button, center vent.


Oxxford (thanks johnnynorman3): Manhattan II: "Americanized Neopolitan shoulder -- very little padding, very sloped, but more rounded at the shoulder seam than a true Neopolitan. I wouldn't call it 'classic' American because it is more lightly padded and close to the natural shoulder line than say, Hickey Freeman." Gibbons: "Gibbons model falls somewhere between a Neopolitan and a Brioni, though it doesn't have the same skirt because of the center vent."


St. Andrews: Anyone?


RL Purple: in the old days, when these were made by the late, lamented Chester Barrie, they struck me as an attempt to copy Kilgour's as exactly as possible for a RTW garment. Now that they are made by St. Andrews, I must admit that I have never tried one on and so do not know. Anyone?
post #13476 of 37396
Northface prank is awesome.
post #13477 of 37396
No, Manton's post is awesome. We need much more of that here and less ad-spam (IMHO).

I'm interested as to what @Kulata thinks that it says about the 'fiasco' though - as far as I can see, it helps is identify the proper names for things, so we can name what we see correctly, and understand the 'family tree' of tailoring. However, this not tell you whether Suit A or Suit B works for any particular person without knowing what someone's underlying physique is... if someone puts on 2 different suits, one still has to look and see whether it fits and flatter the form or not. One can use Manton's post to describe what is right or wrong, and it can help determine some possible alternatives, but you still have to identify whether something actually works for a particular person in practice first.
post #13478 of 37396

If that was in reference to what I posted, then it still counts as good natured advice because I want to get him off his ass and into the gym.

post #13479 of 37396

Thanks Kulata, that was a pleasure to read.

post #13480 of 37396
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingMonkey View Post

No, Manton's post is awesome. We need much more of that here and less ad-spam (IMHO).

I'm interested as to what @Kulata thinks that it says about the 'fiasco' though - as far as I can see, it helps is identify the proper names for things, so we can name what we see correctly, and understand the 'family tree' of tailoring. However, this not tell you whether Suit A or Suit B works for any particular person without knowing what someone's underlying physique is... if someone puts on 2 different suits, one still has to look and see whether it fits and flatter the form or not. One can use Manton's post to describe what is right or wrong, and it can help determine some possible alternatives, but you still have to identify whether something actually works for a particular person in practice first.

Noodles benefits from a swelled chest and/or extended shoulders to fix his pear shape. The Polo has only the swelled chest, full sleeves and minimal waist suppression and it completely fixed the pear shape issue and it looked flattering IMO. The formosa also reduces the appearance of his hips with the extended shoulders, so it also works. Primary reason I told him to get both.

People saw the convex shaped chest as a defect while it's a complementary feature for those that need the additional girth in the chest department.
post #13481 of 37396
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyingMonkey View Post

No, Manton's post is awesome. We need much more of that here and less ad-spam (IMHO).

Yes. The Northface prank is awesome. So is Mantons post.

But lets keep one thing in mind. There is no, nor has there ever been, a thread that keeps going, running only on meaty, intellectual, thought out, helpful, clothing related, posts. Its just too hard to self sustain. Tangential tomfoolery are needed to keep things going, and keep people checking the thread as they see new posts, and when someone has something smart, or interesting, or helpful to say, related to the OP, I am sure they will share it.

Almost any thread that gets strictly policed to include only things directly related to the OP, dies hard and fast. Forcing content is impossible, it will arrive when it arrives.

Not to mention this is GNAT, the king of tangential threads.
post #13482 of 37396

is that why we were talking about plumbing pipes and stuff?

I mean, we want the main focus of this thread to be informative but it's a place where people come and hang out too.

 

pear shape pear shape...I didn't know that I had a pear shaped body. (@*&#$@

the pear shape is caused by jacket having small shoulders that in turn causes the jacket to spread outward from the waist down. 

Unless you've seen me naked, I don't think you can say I have a pear shaped body...:violin: 

post #13483 of 37396
What we need, Noodles, is for you to regress and re-kindle this thread.

I think that is what the public is crying out for - more regression, less Formosa.

/sarcasm

All you need to do is look at the threads Manton tried to start, and maintain, and see Stitchy is right. There was top notch material in there but after maybe 10 pages each thread took a nosedive and got cluttered by inane questions, fit pics that had absolutely no business being posted, and it made the people taking it seriously throw their arms up in defeat and walk away.

Threads like this one may spin off into silliness but they are also fun and no one has walked away from it. I think the 900 pages is testimony to that.
post #13484 of 37396
Quote:
Originally Posted by TM79 View Post

What we need, Noodles, is for you to regress and re-kindle this thread.

I think that is what the public is crying out for - more regression, less Formosa.

/sarcasm

All you need to do is look at the threads Manton tried to start, and maintain, and see Stitchy is right. There was top notch material in there but after maybe 10 pages each thread took a nosedive and got cluttered by inane questions, fit pics that had absolutely no business being posted, and it made the people taking it seriously throw their arms up in defeat and walk away.

Threads like this one may spin off into silliness but they are also fun and no one has walked away from it. I think the 900 pages is testimony to that.

 

It's usually more active than the WAYWRN thread, and much more fun too.

post #13485 of 37396

well, it's a combination of me just being an idiot and good people hanging out here.

this might be @Claghorn's most successful thread thus far.

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