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Good Natured Advice Thread (improving a business wardrobe) - Page 771

post #11551 of 37395
That outfit is so good. I suspect the # of thumbs is because of how all the proportions play off each other, the color palette is quite contained in terms of contrast, with all the contrast coming from differences in textures, materials and patterns, and last but not least because the Junya pants are out of this world. The half piping on the blazer isn't particularly exciting but the close-up of the lower back (not included in the post above) shows how great that piece also is.

I don't think it's possible for someone who's never looked at a cubist painting or a Cindy Sherman photograph to explain why it is liked by many art lovers. It takes a lot more exposure than a first glance with a mocking eye to "get" a different aesthetic or mode of expression.

I don't throw the stone to Coxsackie - we all do this to a certain extent. Limit the scope of what are willing to spend time seeing/listening/reading/watching in order to appreciate or understand it. Such scope may be wider for some than others but it's here for all of us.
post #11552 of 37395
Quote:
Originally Posted by TweedyProf View Post

I think this will be an edifying conversation if it can remain good natured!

 

That's fair enough. I withdraw my previous inflammatory adjectives, unreservedly.

 

However, I do not withdraw "garden gnome". This man, wearing these clothes, to my sartorially uncouth eye looks like a garden gnome riffing on the Little Tramp.

 

But I'm still trying to understand. OK, here's an analogy. The vast majority of people who like Western classical music, do not like atonal classical music. Some lose it from about Debussy on, others draw the line at Schönberg, others will press on through Shostakovich and Bartok but pall at the thought of enduring an opus from Elliott Carter or Stockhausen or Luigi Nono.

 

Others, like myself, find Stockhausen to be mostly rubbish, and yet I can listen to something equally atonal and sonically challenging - say, Lutoslawski or Dutilleux - and get shivers down my spine from its stark, mystical, jarring beauty.

 

When it comes to SWD, I think I can "get" the flowing lines of Yohji Yamamoto, but I'm struggling with this garden-gnome chic. Help me understand, people. Why do so many people like it? What am I missing here?

post #11553 of 37395

Dang, gdl's post went up while I was drafting mine.

 

Food for thought. Thanks mate.

post #11554 of 37395
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coxsackie View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TweedyProf View Post
 
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
I think this will be an edifying conversation if it can remain good natured!

 

That's fair enough. I withdraw my previous inflammatory adjectives, unreservedly.

 

However, I do not withdraw "garden gnome". This man, wearing these clothes, to my sartorially uncouth eye looks like a garden gnome riffing on the Little Tramp.

 

But I'm still trying to understand. OK, here's an analogy. The vast majority of people who like Western classical music, do not like atonal classical music. Some lose it from about Debussy on, others draw the line at Schönberg, others will press on through Shostakovich and Bartok but pall at the thought of enduring an opus from Elliott Carter or Stockhausen or Luigi Nono.

 

Others, like myself, find Stockhausen to be mostly rubbish, and yet I can listen to something equally atonal and sonically challenging - say, Lutoslawski or Dutilleux - and get shivers down my spine from its stark, mystical, jarring beauty.

 

 

When it comes to SWD, I think I can "get" the flowing lines of Yohji Yamamoto, but I'm struggling with this garden-gnome chic. Help me understand, people. Why do so many people like it? What am I missing here?

 

 

What about  the cache associated with particular 'names' in WAYWT- Geller, CdeGs, Junya, SEH Kelly etc.

 

-  dieworkwear puts it down to -

 

  • Practicality: On some level, clothes are meant to be practical. Just things we wear to feel comfortable and look good (or at least look the way we want to look).
  • "Craftsmanship": An overwrought term, but basically deals with how something is constructed.
  • Conceptual design: How something contributes to the greater discussion of design.

 

 

  • but Label means a lot if not more in SW&D surely?
post #11555 of 37395
I would argue that @dieworkwear seems to have left out novelty as a major influence across both forums.
post #11556 of 37395

I just saw a bigger version of the picture, now at work, and so must actually stop typing....

 

OK, just a few more words. For some reason I can't explain, I like the trousers! I couldn't wear them, but they are oddly compelling...I'd be again edified to know what I'm responding positively to.

 

Still, I don't know about "gnome" Cox...for all we can tell (and as the discussion of Chocosa's tailored fits reveal), the poster could be 6'2" or 6'8" (probably not but the minimalist background provides little insight). Anyway, let's leave it that we're both interested in learning.

 

Ok, I look forward to seeing how this conversation develops when I check in at 5PM...

post #11557 of 37395
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pliny View Post

  • but Label means a lot if not more in SW&D surely?

Not a lot more than in CM. The brand is seen by everyone as a stamp that synthesizes (a) a certain way to design or cut garments, (b) a guarantee about the quality of make or choice of fabrics, (c) an overall general ethos or design philosophy that presents continuity for the consumer. Sometimes a brand changes ownership or designer and sees interest and allegiances shift - so it's clear that the label only isn't sufficient.

CM posters often have the same reactions towards brands that represent a mix of design, quality, etc... that they prefer over others - whether that's Edward Green, Rubinacci, Filson, RLPL or now Eidos...

CM has the added dimension of custom clothing which makes you think we are more interested in make and the product itself than the label - but even then, there are makers whose name we trust more than others. Not to mention that the SW&D folks seem to be using custom makers like Luxir increasingly
post #11558 of 37395

For the record, I don't wish to cast doubts or aspersions on diniro's actual stature, which is irrelevant to this debate.

 

Probably the only person who will benefit from this will be me - I might actually learn something. I often find that the best way to learn is to make statements which appear true to the uninformed, and then allow others to disabuse me of my stupidities.

 

It's a form of trollery, but nevertheless a very sincere form of trollery. As are those italics.

post #11559 of 37395
Quote:
Originally Posted by gdl203 View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pliny View Post
 
  • but Label means a lot if not more in SW&D surely?

Not a lot more than in CM. Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
The brand is seen by everyone as a stamp that synthesizes (a) a certain way to design or cut garments, (b) a guarantee about the quality of make or choice of fabrics, (c) an overall general ethos or design philosophy that presents continuity for the consumer. Sometimes a brand changes ownership or designer and sees interest and allegiances shift - so it's clear that the label only isn't sufficient.

CM posters often have the same reactions towards brands that represent a mix of design, quality, etc... that they prefer over others - whether that's Edward Green, Rubinacci, Filson, RLPL or now Eidos...

CM has the added dimension of custom clothing which makes you think we are more interested in make and the product itself than the label
- but even then, there are makers whose name we trust more than others. Not to mention that the SW&D folks seem to be using custom makers like Luxir increasingly

 

yes and yes. what about this tho?-

 

say a Mystery Bespoke Tailor makes a great fitting suit and shirt in nice cloths-   add a simple no-name silk knit, a linen square and any decent Northampton shoe and bang, you've potentially got a stellar and 20+ fit.  

 

Can u get 50+ thumbs (more viewers)  with no-name stuff in WAYWT?  How much is it dieworkwear's big3 and how much is it name-checking?

post #11560 of 37395
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pliny View Post
 

Can u get 50+ thumbs (more viewers)  with no-name stuff in WAYWT?  

Unequivocally yes.  There are plenty of posts where the brands are not even listed.

 

But your other point tells more about the participatory and interactive nature of the SWD crowd vs CM.   People just give a lot more thumb feedback there than in CM, where it seems like, still, years later, we get flurries of posts saying "looks nice" rather than simply thumbing it up.  

post #11561 of 37395
This has been an interesting read.

I dont think that you can really "explain" why that diniro look is so good. When I first started reading the SWD WAYWT thread about a year or so ago, I remember seeing a fit from diniro and my knee jerk reaction was holy moly that looks absurd. But soon enough when I would see the fits he would post, I would be awestruck. Like gdl said, you have to acclimate to it.

If you read the actual discussion in the WAYWT thread you might notice that the feedbacks, critiques, and conversations (when they actually pertain to clothing) are very, very, different than what you see in MC. Things are less specific in terms of measurements and what not, there is not so much an interest in defining and dissecting every aspect of a fit, its more about the general vibe and aesthetic of a fit. And when something is off, its often hard to pin down what is off, and how to fix it. Its just much less formulaic and much more visual.

You have to read and see more of SWD to begin to understand what exactly is the kind of fit that has the right vibe, but once you do, its pretty clear why that fit is so good. You cant just yank one fit and expect to understand what makes it so good at a glance. To put it in MC terms, the colors are right, the proportions are right, the textures are right. Now, if you are not an SWD person, you may think that the actual items themselves are weird and that you would never wear them, and thats fine, but relative oddity of the items aside, they all work together perfectly.

And I think that that is really where the disparity lies. Its not so much in the combinations, or the fits as a whole, its the items themselves. Many of the fits in SWD that get a lot of love are comprised of items that most MC guys would never in a million years put on. They are much more striking, they are more unusual, and for the most part, they are things that you really rarely see in public at all, and certainly not in the workplace. I think people simply have a hard time wrapping their heads around the actual items when they first see an SWD fit like that.

But if you can put that aside for a minute, and say to yourself, ok, I would never wear those pants or that jacket.... but let me look at this person who does want to wear them, how do these items in his fit work together? Pretend you dont care how weird or different the items are, and just focus on the combination of pieces, and not in a nitty picky way, but just as a picture, and I think its then that you can begin to appreciate what is so visually great about fits like diniros.
post #11562 of 37395
Quote:
Originally Posted by ridethecliche View Post
 

Someone teach me about carmina lasts. Is it usually one size up for US sizing? Which lasts fit narrow and which fit wide?

 

RTC, post your sizes in the AE lasts and why that last does or does not work well for you.  Also, do you have a narrow or wide foot?  High or low instep?

post #11563 of 37395
It seems that the backgrounds in SWD pics play just as important a role, since it is about telling a story i would assume. Something that most CM robo-pose pics lack...

I would say this is not so much a fit pic, than a surreal piece of photography. Some effort was taken to make sure the background contrasted with the character in the piece. There is a transition from stark contrast on top, and then more realistic grey values at the bottom, i would guess this was also on purpose (as is the character being off center).

Looking at it like i would an artistic photograph, i can see more depth to this. I suppose half the fun of SWD is the whole "Life Imitating Art" thing, and one can live in this artistic world of aesthetic visuals...
post #11564 of 37395
Quote:
Originally Posted by New Shoes1 View Post
 

 

RTC, post your sizes in the AE lasts and why that last does or does not work well for you.  Also, do you have a narrow or wide foot?  High or low instep?

 

Pretty low instep, I have issues with the laces not being able to close tight enough over my foot much of the time.


I wear an 8E in the suede strand which is comfy enough for all day wear and 8E in the amok as well, that broke in nicely. I have the Daltons in 8.5E which are too big and roomy everywhere. I have 8.5D park avenues that fit okay, but could probably be an 8E.
 

I think I'm a pretty solid 8E for most AE shoes. I have some loafers in 8 whose brand escapes me...that are the right length but too narrow. I have broken in 8D boat shoes successfully.

 

I'm pretty solidly an 8E though for AE I think. When I used to buy them, I bought 8.5D cole haans. Most of them fit okay, but were a hair loose. Not enough to be an issue ever though for dress shoes.

 

A PRL made in italy pair of suede shoes were too big for me in 8.5 and there were too much space between my instep and the start of the shoe, but the length was okay. Sooo I guess wide-ish 8E it is? Unless a cobbler can stretch them out a hair. 

post #11565 of 37395
Quote:
Originally Posted by ridethecliche View Post
 

 

Pretty low instep, I have issues with the laces not being able to close tight enough over my foot much of the time.


I wear an 8E in the suede strand which is comfy enough for all day wear and 8E in the amok as well, that broke in nicely. I have the Daltons in 8.5E which are too big and roomy everywhere. I have 8.5D park avenues that fit okay, but could probably be an 8E.
 

I think I'm a pretty solid 8E for most AE shoes. I have some loafers in 8 whose brand escapes me...that are the right length but too narrow. I have broken in 8D boat shoes successfully.


I'm pretty solidly an 8E though for AE I think. When I used to buy them, I bought 8.5D cole haans. Most of them fit okay, but were a hair loose. Not enough to be an issue ever though for dress shoes.

 

If you're an E width, start with the Forest, Rain and Inca lasts.  I'm a 12D in my AE 1 and 5 last shoes with a foot that is too wide to do any of the narrower AE lasts, and I go one full size down (11UK) on these three Carmina lasts.  The Forest last fits almost identical to a D width AE 5 last shoe, but is slightly more narrow.  The Forest last is very forgiving, though, as it has a high instep and toe box with a round toe.  The Rain last is a little wider but a fairly high volume shoe for those with high insteps.  The Inca last is even wider still, but has a low toe box and low instep.

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