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Daily CE Musings of Piob - Page 190

post #2836 of 5110
A court can hold you in contempt for refusing to follow such an order, but are people doing 5- to 13-year stints in jail for it? I ask that as an actual question, because I don't know the answer...
post #2837 of 5110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post


It still amazes me that everyone doesn't just encrypt their hard drives.

What's the point when the gov can force you to give them the password to decrypt it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

Or, if I can continue talking about something I don't really understand, what usually happens is that a file is "deleted" through Windows, which doesn't do anything more than remove it from the file index; the actual file remains on the drive. You get incomplete recoveries when part, but not all, of the file is overwritten and replaced with something else. The FBI isn't looking at the disk with a microscope and reading 1s and 0s that have been written over.

Again, depends on the case. This is a big celebrity fish they're going after. They are certainly willing to pull out the big guns.
post #2838 of 5110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold falcon View Post

What's the point when the gov can force you to give them the password to decrypt it?

For starters, if somebody pinches your laptop they don't make off with confidential data, not to mention your own tax returns, etc. Hopefully it's not the government you have to worry about here.
Quote:
Again, depends on the case. This is a big celebrity fish they're going after. They are certainly willing to pull out the big guns.

I don't think it's physically possible to recover data that'd actually been overwritten even once. I don't recall ever hearing about it happening. But then I don't claim to be an expert on this, or to have done a survey or even read one, so I could be wrong.
post #2839 of 5110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ataturk View Post

For starters, if somebody pinches your laptop they don't make off with confidential data, not to mention your own tax returns, etc. Hopefully it's not the government you have to worry about here.
I don't think it's physically possible to recover data that'd actually been overwritten even once. I don't recall ever hearing about it happening. But then I don't claim to be an expert on this, or to have done a survey or even read one, so I could be wrong.

Who else would you have to worry about if not the government?

I guess that's why the DoD standard is 3 wipes.

http://pcsupport.about.com/od/termsd/g/dod-5220-22-M.htm

Edit - WAS 3 wipes. Now the drive must be shredded and completely destroyed, 3 wipes is no longer sufficient.
post #2840 of 5110
Don't know if I'd hold the Department of Defense out as your example. They're probably still using hardware that runs on punch cards.
post #2841 of 5110
In response to the edit, there are any number of reasons for the change, the most obvious one would be that it eliminates the risk of error, not to mention the possibility that a drive may malfunction or have bad sectors that don't get erased, etc. All it costs them to destroy the drives is taxpayer money (and not even that much).
post #2842 of 5110
Here you go:

http://www.howtogeek.com/115573/htg-explains-why-you-only-have-to-wipe-a-disk-once-to-erase-it/

tldr; Write the entire drive with either a 1 or 0 or a random pattern. SSDs don't need this because they clear the data on a delete for performance reasons.

The trick is most operating systems don't generally do this, and formatting won't necessarily do this. Most enterprises do a DoD type secure erase and then shred the drives, but that is unnecessary.

Then again, maybe we should continue to let the lawyers debate most secure way to clear data rather than going with what those in the industry say. smile.gif
post #2843 of 5110
Yet another reason to use SSDs.....
post #2844 of 5110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Harold falcon View Post


Unconfirmed, but from what I've read he had deleted it but the FBI pulled a CSI and allegedly retrieved it from the unallocated portions of the hard drive. So he didn't set the drive on fire, put it in a microwave, drill holes in it and dump it in the river like you're supposed to.

 

In the early-aughts, I was a low level employee at a government agency that was investigating a major corporation for financial crimes. My job was to assist with gathering computer forensic evidence on the hard drives of the executives. The drives had been scrubbed, but we could still get a lot of stuff. Much of it was porn.

 

It always astounded me how much porn these guys looked at on their company computers. I suppose this was in the days when there was just one family computer at home instead of personal laptops. Using the office maybe made more sense. And it's not like these guys were admin staff in cubicles. Still. Lots of porn.

post #2845 of 5110
We are all dirty pervs. People should get over it.

And as an old school guy, I'm still a fan of the three-wipe rule.
post #2846 of 5110
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokencycle View Post

Here you go:

http://www.howtogeek.com/115573/htg-explains-why-you-only-have-to-wipe-a-disk-once-to-erase-it/

Then again, maybe we should continue to let the lawyers debate most secure way to clear data rather than going with what those in the industry say. smile.gif

Since it more or less agrees with me, I will accept Howto Geek as the authoritative, last word on the subject. So there!
post #2847 of 5110
Quote:
Originally Posted by brokencycle View Post

Here you go:

http://www.howtogeek.com/115573/htg-explains-why-you-only-have-to-wipe-a-disk-once-to-erase-it/

tldr; Write the entire drive with either a 1 or 0 or a random pattern. SSDs don't need this because they clear the data on a delete for performance reasons.

The trick is most operating systems don't generally do this, and formatting won't necessarily do this. Most enterprises do a DoD type secure erase and then shred the drives, but that is unnecessary.

Then again, maybe we should continue to let the lawyers debate most secure way to clear data rather than going with what those in the industry say. smile.gif

Wait...that's a horribly misleading oversimplification of what SSDs do.

In fact, many SSDs out there are *worse* than HDDs. If they get a normal delete rather than a TRIM, they will just "forget" where the data is and leave it in place. And even with TRIM, I wouldn't trust it to be gone on a forensic level.

Unlike spinning disks, SSDs have limited read-write cycles, and they don't really care where on the disk you store it...so they like to cycle through using the whole disk in a process called wear-leveling. Say your disk has 10 "spaces". If you write something to #1 and #2 and then delete #1...it might try and write to #3-10 before it goes back and overwrites #1...so that it can get more even "wear" over the whole disk.

Also, because of this design...a lot of SSds don't work well with secure delete software meant for magnetic media. Most manufacturers offer tools that purport to do a full drive erase on their drives...but with flash media, physical destruction is really the way to go.
post #2848 of 5110
Quote:
Originally Posted by otc View Post


.but with flash media, physical destruction is really the way to go.

It seems that if you're looking at real time for a real crime, total physical destruction is such a no-brainer. Why leave it to chance?
post #2849 of 5110
Because you could be charged with a crime for destroying the hard drive, or it might be argued at trial that it's evidence of your guilt. Remember that cop who was convicted of murdering his wife a few years back, who had destroyed his hard drives?

Here's at least one example of a conviction for hard drive destruction:

http://volokh.com/2011/07/18/destroying-hard-drive-leads-to-conviction-for-obstructing-federal-investigation/
post #2850 of 5110
Flash media can survive being put in a washer, and thrown in the dryer. Thats' how they caught that sexual dynamo Jodi Arias.
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