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The Watch Appreciation Thread - Page 1654

post #24796 of 31215
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTukker View Post

Really starting to like the black face Explorer II (not sure about red or orange hand). Am I on to something or have I just been staring at too many Tumblr pics? I am not even that much of a Rolex fan; would really love some views here; please don't hold back.

 

Its definitely a cool watch.  Its very Rolex, but its a bit of the anti-Rolex in terms of recognition.  I've had gotten an occasional comment about my LV Sub, or old GMT, but not a single comment about the Ex2.  You get the oyster bracelet, oyster case, even the same basic dial as a Sub or GMT.  However, something about the brushed finish bezel causes it to fly under the radar.  I've had ref 16570 black dial red hand for 12 years and its been great.  It was my daily wearer for 10 years.  No problems.  Its looks great with casual clothes and the brushed bezel gives it a slightly dressier look than a Sub or GMT, at leas when they were all 40mm (new orange hand Ex2s are 42mm and maybe a bit sportier with the big orange hand).  While my first choice with a suit would be something dressier, the Ex2 will do just fine with a suit if need be (I never travel with more than 1 watch, so what ever I wear while traveling has to do it all).  

 

I do like the new/current Ex2 with orange hand, I'm just not sure its as versatile at least not for me.  Either version of the Ex2 is a great watch.  Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

Just a few quick pix.

 

 

post #24797 of 31215

Introducing: The "Atelier Collection" by Cole Haan....starting at just $700 for a hand-welted, artisan-crafted shoe made from just the best 10% of our vegetable-tanned French calf hides...

 

Now imagine all that is true and they're brilliant.  And they look almost exactly like Edward Greens.  

 

Yep, that's the GS right there.

post #24798 of 31215
Lots going on here....love this corner of the web!


Stitchy: I did see RG3 with that Tudor (GQ?). Nice placement job by them.


Dino: nice pix of your Exp II...and once again your cufflink game is top-notch.

I've already expressed my appreciation watch lust for the 42mm / orange hand / black dial.... and of course I need another sports watch like a hole in the head. Just can't stop thinking about that one.



We may have beaten the Grand Seiko discussion within an inch of its life, and I'm sure this has been brought up at some point on other watch sites, but look at it this way: if there were such a thing as a Grand Tissot, or a Grand Bulova, would you give serious consideration buying one? I think for most US customers we know the answer, and again-- strictly from domestic market point of view, that remains their biggest issue. (If Seiko even thinks it's an issue....which is of course another partially-discussed tangent.)

EDIT: Mimo may have aced me out with the Cole Haan thing above, since I doesn't type so goodly, but again we're probably here by now: deadhorse-a.gif



~B~ : you should give serious consideration to Mimo's "offer". Dude makes a lot of sense.


Quote:
I've owned my VCs for years and never had a single comment about them, and my AP for over a year and it has only gotten a comment or two and that happened in a watch store.

One of these days I will have to post a photo of the watch I get the most positive comments on....I don't think I've ever put one up, at least not on TWAT. (Hint: it's actually a quartz LOL).




And for today, I'm wearing this old thing:


Edited by Keith T - 9/11/13 at 9:33am
post #24799 of 31215
This is a fantastic watch. My brother just got it several months ago and seeing it up close made me appreciate Rolex as a brand in a whole new light. The bracelet in particular is divine. One of the few Rolexes I see myself owning anytime soon, but I like the white dial version personally


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTukker View Post

Really starting to like the black face Explorer II (not sure about red or orange hand). Am I on to something or have I just been staring at too many Tumblr pics? I am not even that much of a Rolex fan; would really love some views here; please don't hold back.


?src=is%7BRolex%2F7721013106122709796kEr%3F%26layer%3D1%26src%3Dblack--eii--g--g--42131061225299833Bn%26layer%3D2%26src%3D21657013106173127406a7v%7D&$description$&rotate=86.6&extend=-1275,-710,-111,-552
post #24800 of 31215
great pics, dino,

keith - fistbump.gif
post #24801 of 31215
Forget to mention on the ceramic GMT .... I STILL have not seen the blue-black in real life yet.

Shame on me, but I guess that could also indicate that they are flying out the doors immediately.
post #24802 of 31215
Yeah someone pointed it out earlier. When I first got the issue I actually glanced over it quickly and thought he was wearing a Root Beer to match the 'Skins team colors


Quote:
Originally Posted by in stitches View Post

did anyone notice RGIII wearing a tudor on the cover of SI?
post #24803 of 31215
YAY 4 FOOTBALL AND WATCHES!!
post #24804 of 31215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith T View Post

Lots going on here....love this corner of the web!


Dino: nice pix of your Exp II...and once again your cufflink game is top-notch.


We may have beaten the Grand Seiko discussion within an inch of its life, and I'm sure this has been brought up at some point on other watch sites, but look at it this way: if there were such a thing as a Grand Tissot, or a Grand Bulova, would you give serious consideration buying one? I think for most US customers we know the answer, and again-- strictly from domestic market point of view, that remains their biggest issue. (If Seiko even thinks it's an issue....which is of course another partially-discussed tangent.)


Thanks Keith, Glad you liked the links.  Very good point about Grand Bulova etc.  A very handsome vintage piece thanks for sharing a photo.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by in stitches View Post

great pics, dino,

:cheers:  Thanks Stitchy

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith T View Post

Forget to mention on the ceramic GMT .... I STILL have not seen the blue-black in real life yet.

Shame on me, but I guess that could also indicate that they are flying out the doors immediately.

It could indicate that you need to get yourself at a dealer and buy one!  

post #24805 of 31215
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheTukker View Post

Really starting to like the black face Explorer II (not sure about red or orange hand). Am I on to something or have I just been staring at too many Tumblr pics? I am not even that much of a Rolex fan; would really love some views here; please don't hold back.

 

Hey there - I actually just helped my cousin find a pre-owned black face Explorer II with an orange hand a few weeks ago.  Very enjoyable process, and really lovely watch especially if the offering (aesthetic, complication, relative pricing) works for you.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dino944 View Post

 

I think avoiding certain brands and denying oneself ownership of a great watch because its a bigger brand name and not wanting to be labeled a brand whore, isn't very different than buying a watch specifically for brand recognition ...each is motivated by concern about others and what they will think.     

 

Why, yes.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by apropos View Post
Ding ding ding - good counterpoint. 10 points to Gryffindor. icon_gu_b_slayer[1].gif

 

Unsurprisingly we concur and are happy that Dino pointed this out.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by in stitches View Post

YAY 4 FOOTBALL AND WATCHES!!

 

Legendary butt fumble aside, shot of Mark Sanchez here sporting a Sub LV.

 

 

Public service announcement: at one point Mr Sanchez was rumored to be dating the lovely Ms Upton. Throughout most of 2012, if I am not mistaken.  Which is kind of impossible, since Kate and I were going out at the time.

 

But this was a long time ago, and she very heartily dissed him earlier this year:

 

http://hollywoodlife.com/2013/01/08/kate-upton-disses-mark-sanchez-new-york-jets-twitter/

post #24806 of 31215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith T View Post

We may have beaten the Grand Seiko discussion within an inch of its life, and I'm sure this has been brought up at some point on other watch sites, but look at it this way: if there were such a thing as a Grand Tissot, or a Grand Bulova, would you give serious consideration buying one? I think for most US customers we know the answer, and again-- strictly from domestic market point of view, that remains their biggest issue. (If Seiko even thinks it's an issue....which is of course another partially-discussed tangent.)

EDIT: Mimo may have aced me out with the Cole Haan thing above, since I doesn't type so goodly, but again we're probably here by now:

 

Grand Fossil!  Which I think they are trying to do with their "Fossil Swiss" line... but that's a bad example since GS pricing is several times above the Fossil Swiss line ($700 to $900), and the quality, finishing and mechanical movements of GS shouldn't probably even be mentioned in the same breath as (gasp) Fossil.

 

But, I think the example is not necessarily completely worthless.   For a brand going "upstream" in terms of quality, finishing, movements... and pricing, Fossil is kind of in the same boat here. The "smart" thing they did is to go sub-$1,000 (probably sub-$700 for retailers like Amazon) so they're not banging up against Tissot, Hamilton or even lower end Tags in the 'but for this much money I could already get a..." dilemma.

post #24807 of 31215

Companies are certainly trying the aspirational brand strategy to varying degrees of success.

 

That Curvex is really beautiful. 

 

Back to the whole GS thing: the whole line is based upon idiosyncracies unique to the Japanese market. Outside of Japan they are a niche market, but that niche is growing. I think one reason is Spring Drive. 

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by apropos View Post


In addition to the reasons listed above (branch of large company making cheap watches, etc) by others, I will add 2 more.

Making a watch is obviously a much more complicated process than making a jacket. Two (skilled) people with a needle and an iron could order a roll of cloth off the interwebz and make a jacket. A watch, not so easy - which is why production is dominated by large corporations.

The small watch ateliers who are able to bring everything in-house or close enough, their price ranges are out of reach for 99.9999% - there are far fewer people who can drop $160,000 for a Horological Machine than there are people who can stretch $7000 for a jacket made by Rubi.
And that is my problem with GS - their designs. There are maybe one or two out of the many - and there are many GSs I have looked at in person and online - that I have thought to myself, "hmm, this is something unique and interesting". I mean, go browse the current GS lineup at the GS website here - you have lots of Datejust-esque models in all lineups, a few Spring Drives that remind me of TAGs, two truly terrible 4-hand monstrosities that resemble the Submariner, and oddly enough a couple that resemble Hamiltons Khakis. The chronographs look like something a 18 year old gets as his first "serious" watch, and every single Quartz model is either bland or a gussied up Datejust.

Only one model appeals to me - SBGW047. Even despite the 4 lines of text on the dial having 4 different fonts. Which bright spark in the design department thought it really necessary to state "Seiko", "GS" and "Grand Seiko" on the same dial? Who is going to look at the watch, say "oh that's a Seiko", then "but wait, it's a GS? what does that mean???", and then "oh, Grand Seiko!"?????!!!



Add to that the value-suck with mall Seikos, the paucity of secondhand market demand and the consequent resale price hit, and GS is pretty much a no go for me.

 

I will agree that this is the best looking watch in the GS line. It's a homage to their hi-beat watches from the 60's, and if the made a version of the watch as a Spring Drive with luminous I'd snap it up. But they most likely won't make such a version simply because it's meant as a reissue/homage.

 

Not sure I agree with you on many of the other criticisms. A GS' inner works are truly 100% in-house down to the elemental parts. As for the styling I would admit yes, the divers show some shout out to Rolex, and many of the dress watches look like the older Datejusts - which in my mind is not necessarily a bad thing since the current Datejust line is pretty awful designwise. I'm waiting to see if Seiko makes a non-limited version of the Spring Drive Tuna, hopefully they will. 

 

If I were to speculate I would say that GS' tentative reach into the global market is a result of being pulled into it by enthusiasts and dealers. The GS line is very much reflective of the Japanese love of nostalgia, which can express itself as an Oyaji wanting a better and more expensive version of the same watch he wore when he first started out as a salaryman. 

 

If I were to advise Seiko in some magical instance I would simplify the branding and make more titanium Spring Drive models. These technical achievements are unique to Seiko. Only Seiko knows how to make titanium watches that don't become scratch magnets or oxidize into blah over time, and Spring Drive is proprietary to them.

 

As for the Chrono: personally I like it. Most of it. It's probably the most readable chronograph available anywhere. I don't think I could ever get used to the huge pushers, but that quirk is a result of the engineered feel of using them as well as the screw locks.

 

And I'm sorry, even with some derivative design cues, you can't say that this watch does not have a compelling and unique appeal: 

 

 

post #24808 of 31215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino944 View Post

I think avoiding certain brands and denying oneself ownership of a great watch because its a bigger brand name and not wanting to be labeled a brand whore, isn't very different than buying a watch specifically for brand recognition ...each is motivated by concern about others and what they will think.

yup. been said before, but beared repeating.

---

also, imo, we are all brand whores. period. i dont believe for one second that any of the watches, cars, shoes or clothing we buy are "worth" what we pay. sure, there is fantastic artistry, quality and craftsmanship. sure they retain value, and sometimes even increase even used. sure there is a lot of labor costs that go into these things. but they are still all over priced. every last one.

shoes for 500 bucks or a grand plus, watches for 4, 5, 6 and even 7 figures, suits for a couple Gs.... all over priced. no question. but, we appreciate why they are overpriced, and all prettiness and we LOVE the brands, their history, their message, vibe.... whatever it is that appeals, it appeals. its very much about the brand.

and in that way, we are all brand whores. i dont care. i embrace it. but imho telling ourselves otherwise is often only a trick of our mind. and it rarely tricks or convinces anyone else.
post #24809 of 31215

It does have a compelling and unique appeal.  If it didn't have that day counter I might even find it beautiful.  I like the apparently random location of the power reserve, and this watch actually screams to me that it's Asian, somehow.  Something about the hands and markers.

 

Ah fuck it, I'd still rather have a Sub.  But I do get it.

post #24810 of 31215

The GS topic has piqued my interest, so given what others have posted in this thread, I did a little bit of research to learn more about this specific offering.  Hayward and RogerP - you two have probably forgotten more about GS than I will ever learn.  So forgive my sophomoric and possibly simplistic impressions below.

 

1.  GS has been around for over 50 years, and for the majority of this time it really didn't care about markets outside Japan, as RogerP mentioned.  However, presumably they did start caring in 2010 - or at least they began exploring international markets and how they would do.  Summary article here from the 'Dink back in July 2010 about the GS international push:

 

http://www.hodinkee.com/blog/2010/7/8/grand-seiko-watches-go-international-does-their-reputation-p.html

 

Hayward's note above provides some perspective as to why they might have done this relatively late in their long history.

 

2.  They expanded to about 20 markets, including North America.  It looks like they cared enough about these new markets to come up with a new website, according to this article:

 

http://www.luxist.com/2010/10/04/grand-seiko-luxury-watches-finally-available-wordwide/

 

3.  Late in 2010 articles like this appeared in the New York Times, raising questions about whether GS could crack the higher end market given various issues associated with the brand.  BUT read the entire piece and it's actually very positive: they highlight attributes about GS that they feel is clearly superior, and it ends on a high, optimistic note:

 

“Most parts of the movement are crafted manually,” Gisbert L. Brunner, a German author on watches, noted in the May issue of Chronos magazine in Japan. “That’s something not been done in Swiss factories in a while.”

 

“If more people learn of the superior processing technology and the level of the precision, nothing seems to stand in the way for Seiko to achieve success in the European market,” Mr. Brunner added. “Grand Seiko delivers value far exceeding the price tag it carries.”

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/26/fashion/26iht-acawseiko.html

 

(I actually enjoyed reading this article a lot; worth three minutes of your time if you haven't read it)

 

4.  OK - so GS is clearly high quality.  Misunderstandings from earlier posts and exchanges aside, it's been clarified that no one really questioned the quality of GS.  It's also been clarified (I think) that:

 

4.a.  If you choose GS over other watchmakers for its quality, aesthetics, mechanics, etc - good for you!  Wear it in good health!  As an individual spending your own money you are most entitled to your choice for a timepiece with which you've fallen in love.

 

4.b.  The question revolves around whether GS can compete in the market against other watchmakers with a similar price point, along with everything else subsumed under the heading of "brand offering."

 

Does anyone have actual numbers of GS's sold, say, in the US market or other markets excluding Japan?  I can't find any stats.

 

5.   As an economist by profession, I am morally obliged to check out pricing patterns.  One possible telling development: while we have had endless discussions about watchmakers like Rolex or Patek raising prices (the 2008-2009 blip aside), last July GS actually lowered its prices for the US market.

 

Notes here from Arizona Fine Time, a dealer describing themselves as "Grand Seiko's Premier Authorized Dealer in the US:"

 

http://azfinetime.wordpress.com/2013/07/08/az-fine-time-announces-grand-seiko-prices-reduced/

 

http://www.azfinetime.com/grand-seiko/

 

(And before anyone shreds me to pieces for comparing Rolex or Patek to GS, here's none other than a guy from Arizona Fine Time emphasizing the quality of GS... by referencing Rolex and Patek):

 

"Grand Seiko is still relatively new to the US market, but collectors are becoming more aware of its presence every day. I have seen many avid Patek and Rolex collectors switch to Grand Seiko because of its superior quality. Grand Seiko is not only a brand of beauty, but a brand of accuracy. The biggest goal in the watch industry is accuracy. Seiko holds the crown in every sense."

 

- from "Joe @ AZFT" via this site: http://www.watchtalkforums.info/forums/thread60904.html

 

(Also, I'm not so sure that the biggest goal in the watch industry is accuracy... but that's a topic for another day ahaha)

 

6.  So - again - the point is not that GS is a bad watch, or about any value judgments about GS versus non-GS buyers.  GS chose to enter non-Japan markets in 2010 for one reason or another.  Presumably they want to succeed in some form.  The issue is not "eh, I don't care if GS succeeds in non-Japan markets.  I love GS watches."  The question is has GS been successful, so far, given its overall offering, brand associations and pricing strategy?  Dino944, stitchy and others are skeptical.

 

But I wonder if we have actual numbers that can speak for themselves.  Market share?  Volume, year over year growth stats compared to their initial projections?  Anyone have awesome numbers they can and would like to share...?


Edited by no frills - 9/11/13 at 11:40am
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