or Connect
Styleforum › Forums › Men's Style › Classic Menswear › The Watch Appreciation Thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

The Watch Appreciation Thread - Page 1649

post #24721 of 34980
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerP View Post

I still don't accept that this 'talk but don't buy' scenario remotely reflects a generalized reality even if it is something you have encountered in individual circumstances.  Would I be correct in guessing you don't spend much time on Seiko forums?

Hey no big deal. You don't have to accept the "talk but don't buy" scenarios scenarios I've encountered. They exist, but at the end of the day Seiko's bread & butter are their mainstream Seiko watches so they probably don't care. If it were a smaller company it may matter more to them. In addition, I won't drag him in by name, but another regular poster here who lives in Asia has also said GS isn't that popular even in Asia. IIRC, he also said he has witnessed a lot of "Talk but don't buy". but again we are just 2 individuals , and you can believe anything you like.

As for Seiko forums I have visited on occasion, but so what? Do you think that if 500 people a year or a 1,000, or 5,000 were to post photos of GS's it would disprove the idea that at a certain price range they lose sales to Rolex, Omega, Breitling and other brands more associated with luxury? Sorry but it doesn't. In reality once a brand is with the price range of other brands people consider finer, more exclusive, and/ or more luxurious people often choose the perceived finer brand. At some price range Rolex, Omega, & Breitling lose some sales to AP, VC, Patek & Lange. Then maybe at some level they lose sales to FP. Journe, Laurent Ferrier, and independents. In the end if the buyer is happy with their purchase that's what matters.

In defending GS, I think you lost sight of my simply using them as an example of a difficulty Ben's watches may face when prices reach a certain level... Whether you think its a myth, urban legend or just hearsay its ok with me.
post #24722 of 34980
Fully admit that I can be a brand whore as much as anybody-- but given that diver's appearance, yes I would take a Sub, or an Omega PO.... every single time.

Maybe not the most fair example for Grand Seiko, but there's definitely a point being made.


EDIT: not a Seiko hater...I've got two, but neither of them is a GS.
post #24723 of 34980
I would love to see a GS up close in person. Sadly I think I do fall into the category of admirers and supporters without ownership or direct experience.

Although I have heard nothing but fantastic things from owners, I will say a part of me does acknowledge a feeling that for the price there are other more well known brands out there. I'd be lying if I didn't say it didn't affect me on some level, but on the other hand it isn't an overwhelming factor for me either.

I've had this on my radar for some time. Hope to see one in person, and hope then I have the stones to put my money wear my mouth is! (web pic)

photo SBGA031-watches-1244936450.jpg

on that note, this has recently caught my attention:

(omega web)

44mm version of the newer co-axial 300m chrono diver. I had the older 41.5, but always wished it was a tad bigger. 8 years later and voila!

photo 21230445001001-20.png


and before - prefer this Speedy bracelet to the Bond bracelet though..

photo Omegaposta.jpg



sigh. Looks like the DSSD may take yet another back seat.
post #24724 of 34980
pretty much agree to the above in dinos post. i dont see GSs ever going beyond interest to those select people that have an affinity for what they are.

now, in japan i understand they are viewed in much more luxurious light. however, in the states, 99% of people think $200-$450 dollar watch you buy at the mall, when they hear the name seiko. you know, the brand in the case next to the fossils and citizens and skagens. (no hate to any of these brands, just paining the mental association of most regular shoppers) and that person, would be highly unlikely to be satiated with wearing a watch that has that mental association, when for they same money they could have an omega, breitling or rolex, which they associate with ultimate luxury.

lets paint a picture....

"hey dude, cool new watch! what is it?"

"oh its a seiko."

"you got it at the mall?"

"no, its a really expensive and luxurious seiko. specialty watch."

"no kidding? what did it run you?"

"about a couple Gs. little more actually."

"did you know you could get like a breitling or a rolex for that price."

"yes, but this is just as fancy. probably better quality and nicer movement too. the hand even sweeps smoother than a rolex. really, it is amazing. i promise. go online and read about it."

"um, ok, man. sure. sounds good. enjoy it. its really pretty."

later at friends home:

"honey, did you know bob spent a couple Gs on a seiko? i got one at the mall last year on sale for 150 bucks, what a moron. should have bought a rolex."

later at GSs seiko home.....

":foreveralone: no one understands my fancy watch!! : ( "

im not saying thats right or fair. im saying that seiko made their bed in the states with the brand image they created, and if they plan on using the same name on the dial of their upscale watches, they have an uphill fight to change the public perception. just like rolex uses a different name for their "lower" end watches, which they really do not even market in the US. and i am sure that is very intentional, and surely it is done with accounting for the brand image they want to maintain. few people that buy the hundreds of thousands of rolexes each year even know of tudor, and that is a separation i am sure they intended. they want people to think they have a watch that is the brand of sheer luxury. no other mental association at all. the people that they want to know about tudor are only people they know that can understand the reason and differences behind the brands.

outside of RL, there is no brand in the universe that can use the same name on a $10 shirt at marshalls and a $10,000 suit at their mansion, and no one blinks. thats just the way it is. for everyone else, once you have created your image, if you want to upsell, or downsell without hurting your upsell, you have a minimal chance of success.

im not saying this to mean that GSs are less than what they are purported to be. i am just saying that i have been reading about them for years and years, and as far as i can tell, they have not broken that glass celling. unless something drastic happens, or that name on the dial changes and they re-market them under a new name, i cant imagine them ever gaining mass popularity at that price point in the US. they will appeal to those in the know, but not the average joe looking to buy a luxury watch. imho anyways.
post #24725 of 34980

I'm not sure GS owners/buyers in the States give two shits about what their buddies think. I'm not sure they need people to understand their fancy watch. I could be wrong, but that's the impression I get.

post #24726 of 34980
^^ Well said. I agree 100%. while we can wax eloquent that we buy watches strictly for the craftmanship, deep down we're all brand whores to one extent or another. (im speaking in generalities and painting with broad strokes of course) The situation you described is exactly why i'll never buy a GS. Id much rather spend a few grand on a watch that is relatively unknown....(nomos, archimeade, stowa etc) Their largest problem is that theyre such a juggernaut in the watch community for entry level watches or the ubiquitous old man watch. Everyones father and grandfather has one. Theyve saturated the market with $200 watches making it nearly impossible for anyone to see them as anything other than a cheap mall watch.
post #24727 of 34980

But getting back to the real point, I agree it's a good example of the difficulties Ben can potentially face.

post #24728 of 34980
Quote:
Originally Posted by no frills View Post

 

I have - many times since I am from that part of the world.  Didn't do much for me, but that's just me.

 

I did receive a lovely Seiko clock as a wedding present, which I still display in our living room!

 

To the many points discussed above, I think relative pricing, brand perception, resale value, and alternative options all play a part in whether someone goes for a GS or other offerings in the market.  It's the same issue even Rolex faces once it tries to break the $50,000 to $100,000 price range: the current all-platinum Daytona will retail for $75,000.  We do not know how it will do in the secondary market, but I do know that platinum models like the 118206 Day-Date clears for about half or just a little more than half of its last retail price of around $60,000.  At those price levels, potential resale value markdowns and availability of alternative options, a guy like me would start sniffing at Patek Philippe grand complications.

 

Similarly - and this may be a bad example, I'm sure GS has other unique-looking models, but this is to illustrate my point above - here is the GS SBGA029:

 

 

http://www.grand-seiko.com/collection/9r-springdrive/SBGA029.html

 

I'm not sure about the exact retail price of this piece - but I think it's between $7,000 to $8,000 nowadays.  I've seen some posts advertising this for sale for around $5,000, maybe a bit less.

 

But for this kind of aesthetic, pricing and the availability of other options - how many end users would go for this GS versus going for a Sub?

 

Again, this isn't about slamming GS; nor is this a popularity or beauty contest ("how many TWAT members likes a specific watch" does and should not translate to what you yourself should pick as an individual: it's your money and your collection after all).  And not to speak for Dino necessarily, but I think this was his point: a whole lot of people would probably go for the Sub.  Roger - you might call them brand-bedazzled twits who drink the KoolAid made by elves, and that's OK too.

 

Speaking of - Roger, if you would go for Omega and Rolex despite their associations with James Bond, overhyped marketing and bloated budgets, etc, etc - do you think their pricing (whether retail via ADs or on the secondary market) is justified anyway?

 



I'm not a fan of that particular GS, but the one I posted earlier retails new for around US$4k new, and I would (and obviously did) consider that amongst similarly priced offerings from established Swiss brands.

I assume you are asking for my personal view of the justification of the retail price of Omega and Rolex? Market justification is all either brand needs and they both have it in spades.

Let's take Rolex as an example. My answer (and again, simply my personal view) is generally, no. The Rolex that is top of my list as a next potential purchase is the green sub - ceramic bezel and matching green dial. It retails for ~ $9k in Canada before tax, so comfortably over $10k as an out-the-door starting point.

Is that $10k worth of watch? As nice as it is, I'd have to say no. And I think it's really quite nice - and may well cave and get it anyway - but I would do so feeling that I was not getting value for money in terms of the product itself. Now, for someone who values brand highly -particulary the guy who wants to loudly announce to all and sundry that he dropped a shitload of cash on his new watch - it may represent very strong value for money in a way that, say, a Glashutte Original Sport Evo would not.

On a related tangent - my hangup with this watch has always been the wearability of the bold green colour - subjectively appealing but potentially limiting (I felt much the same hesitance before purchasing my first pair of navy blue dress shoes). So I did what I had done years ago when struggling with whether Panerai was really "me" in terms of on the wrist aesthetics. I bought a homage. (Go ahead, limber up your vocal cords for the howls of righteous indignation - I've heard it all before). I've worn in at least for part of every day for the last week and love it. Question answered - I am ready to embrace my inner Kermit - love the colour on my wrist, out in the world.

Now, I am not for a moment suggesting an equivalence with the Rolex, but here are some interesting facts about the homage.

* ceramic bezel with super nice 120-click action.
* saphire crystal
* Swiss ETA 2836-2 movement that has been running at a consistent +2-3 sec/day each day so far.
* nicely finished stainless steel case and bracelet (Chinese manufacture)
* slide-adjustable clasp (why doesn't every sports watch have this. Heck, why doesn't every ROLEX sports watch have this?)

And the price isn't 1/5th that of the Rolex - it's 1/5th the TAX on the Rolex.

If I were to put a number on my perception of the value of the Rolex, I'd say it's a $5k watch with a $4k brand premium. Not an appealing ratio, but still, a very apealing watch.

Stitchy - re your comment above - I can't include myself in the brand-whore "we". If anything, I over-correct on the anti-branding side of the equation. There is no WAY I would have popped for my EG Galways or those lovely G&G boots if the boots themselves were no nicer than my Allen Edmonds Bayfields.

The GS will never be purchased by a brand-whore. For me, that's part of the appeal.

Fack, I'm tired from all that typing!
post #24729 of 34980
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnguy001 View Post

on that note, this has recently caught my attention:

(omega web)

44mm version of the newer co-axial 300m chrono diver. I had the older 41.5, but always wished it was a tad bigger. 8 years later and voila![/spoiler]
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
photo 21230445001001-20.png

and before - prefer this Speedy bracelet to the Bond bracelet though..
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
photo Omegaposta.jpg

sigh. Looks like the DSSD may take yet another back seat.

Imo, your older 41.5 looks better. Old swords hands are much nicer than the current ones. And your 41.5 appears well proportioned in that wrist shot.
Edited by Wes Bourne - 9/10/13 at 9:26am
post #24730 of 34980
Quote:
Originally Posted by DLJr View Post

I'm not sure GS owners/buyers in the States give two shits about what their buddies think. I'm not sure they need people to understand their fancy watch. I could be wrong, but that's the impression I get.

i fear you may have missed my point entirely. yes, surely the people who actually buy them dont care, at least not enough to stop them from buying. and or they hope to make other people understand why the value is what it is.

what i am saying is, and i thought i was quite clear, that most people do not understand, or care to understand all this. and that is why imo seiko will never get mass popularity in the states for GSs at the price point they are in. the mental disconnect of the majority of shoppers is too strong. joe the dude who got a nice year end bonus will not buy a fancy watch that he cant understand and knows that his boys at the bar will ridicule. its just the reality. most shoppers think that way.

hell, even we do. if i posted here next week that i bought a watch from fossil for 20Gs, would anyone not think, "what a freaking moron? you can get a PP for that" even if they believed me that it was an amazing quality watch worth the price? no, everyone would think that, and some would even say it.

you are who you are, and for most shoppers, thats is a very strong factor in their decision process.
post #24731 of 34980
Quote:
Originally Posted by DLJr View Post

I'm not sure GS owners/buyers in the States give two shits about what their buddies think. I'm not sure they need people to understand their fancy watch. I could be wrong, but that's the impression I get.


 



This is exactly correct - it's not a DOWNSIDE to the GS buyer that the great unwashed do not recognize his selection for what it is.
post #24732 of 34980
Quote:
Originally Posted by no frills View Post
 

 

I have - many times since I am from that part of the world.  Didn't do much for me, but that's just me.

 

I did receive a lovely Seiko clock as a wedding present, which I still display in our living room!

 

To the many points discussed above, I think relative pricing, brand perception, resale value, and alternative options all play a part in whether someone goes for a GS or other offerings in the market.  It's the same issue even Rolex faces once it tries to break the $50,000 to $100,000 price range: the current all-platinum Daytona will retail for $75,000.  We do not know how it will do in the secondary market, but I do know that platinum models like the 118206 Day-Date clears for about half or just a little more than half of its last retail price of around $60,000.  At those price levels, potential resale value markdowns and availability of alternative options, a guy like me would start sniffing at Patek Philippe grand complications.

 

Similarly - and this may be a bad example, I'm sure GS has other unique-looking models, but this is to illustrate my point above - here is the GS SBGA029:

 

http://www.grand-seiko.com/collection/9r-springdrive/SBGA029.html

 

I'm not sure about the exact retail price of this piece - but I think it's between $7,000 to $8,000 nowadays.  I've seen some posts advertising this for sale for around $5,000, maybe a bit less.

 

But for this kind of aesthetic, pricing and the availability of other options - how many end users would go for this GS versus going for a Sub?

 

Again, this isn't about slamming GS; nor is this a popularity or beauty contest ("how many TWAT members likes a specific watch" does and should not translate to what you yourself should pick as an individual: it's your money and your collection after all).  And not to speak for Dino necessarily, but I think this was his point: a whole lot of people would probably go for the Sub.  Roger - you might call them brand-bedazzled twits who drink the KoolAid made by elves, and that's OK too.

 

Speaking of - Roger, if you would go for Omega and Rolex despite their associations with James Bond, overhyped marketing and bloated budgets, etc, etc - do you think their pricing (whether retail via ADs or on the secondary market) is justified anyway?

+1 Spot on Frills.  

post #24733 of 34980
rnguy - geez, we have such similar tastes - I am digging that Omega as well. Do you happen to know the retail on that?
post #24734 of 34980
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerP View Post

Stitchy - re your comment above - I can't include myself in the brand-whore "we". If anything, I over-correct on the anti-branding side of the equation. There is no WAY I would have popped for my EG Galways or those lovely G&G boots if the boots themselves were no nicer than my Allen Edmonds Bayfields.
The GS will never be purchased by a brand-whore. For me, that's part of the appeal.
Fack, I'm tired from all that typing!

totally fine, and i respect you for that. but you are by a country mile, or twenty, in the minority. and that is the battle that seiko faces with GS in the states. they have steadfast customers like you, who will happily kop and love their GSs, but most other people, just cant make that mental jump.

sa'll good.
post #24735 of 34980
Oh - Frills - just to be clear - I have not suggested that ALL Rolex / Omega buyers are brand-bedazzled twits - I have bought from both brands in the past and expect to do so in the future I would not describe myself in those terms. I was drawing the distinction that a GS purchaser is most likely NOT a brand-bedazzled twit - as the brand in question doesn't dazzle in that particular way.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Classic Menswear
Styleforum › Forums › Men's Style › Classic Menswear › The Watch Appreciation Thread