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The Watch Appreciation Thread - Page 1647

post #24691 of 31016
mimo, thanks for the time in writing all this, just finished reading it!
post #24692 of 31016

Very good post Mimo!  

 

I have thought about raising some questions and points but have resisted.  

post #24693 of 31016
Mimo, this is me standing and applauding that post.
post #24694 of 31016
Whoa thank you Mimo for writing such a detailed and well-explained post. The effort and time you spent on it is truly appreciated.

I'm at dinner right now and will reply to your post and comments later on.
post #24695 of 31016
B

Thanks for all the updates. If I may be nitpicky: on looking at your photos, some of the shiny applied hour markers don't seem to be set correctly in that they do not point directly towards the middle. (if you drew an imaginary line from the tip of the hour maker, it should intersect at the middle of the dial right?) If you look at the dial, it clearly has very nice radial lines for every hour that extend from the center out to the perimeter, but the actual hour makers themselves seem to be a little off. Some of the markers also appear offset between the perimeter 'ticks" (there are 10 between each hour marker I believe), with some inconsistency spaced between these ticks and hour markers..

This could very well be an optical illusion, or the way the picture was taken, but just thought you should know.

Kind regards

R
post #24696 of 31016
Well, this topic sure has become very interesting. I have gone back and forth on my opinions since this discussion first started, and it is Mimo's post that has finally allowed me to gather my thoughts. So, I will just piggy back a little bit on his post.

I will be completely honest. When I first read B's post, I was hesitant. B speaks about the rice-paper guilloche, the hand-blued logo, etc., and when I read those features, I was rather dismissive. It came across as fluff. I wanted more substance. It was only when I read Mimo's post that I realized that this is the same kind of information that I eat up from other brands. When Grand Seiko speaks of their Zaratsu Katana Blade polishing style, I am riveted. When AL&S talk of their gold chatons, I eat that stuff up. When Patek speaks of blackened gold indices, or an officer's caseback than took three years to engineer, I am utterly captivated. So why was I so dismissive with B's "press release?"

To quote our dear friend Reevolving, perhaps it is a little bit of... cognitive dissonance? Sorry, just had to go there. But seriously, when I hear about some of the features on the Celadon watches, I think to myself that there is no way that a watch can offer that much in the way of features for around $1,000. I think to myself that something has to give. But Mimo's post made me think to myself that maybe we are really drinking the koolaide. Maybe a watch can have gold chatons and be under $20,000. I really have such a miniscule understanding of what these things actually cost.

I remember seeing this "watch meme" on WUS that made me chuckle a little bit:



But doesn't it really speak to a very important issue? Let us not forget that the luxury watch industry is effectively a watch-selling oligopoly. They set the prices, and their output is dictated by the market / economists, not by their watch makers. I will respond with more later, but I wanted to lay out what I think may be on the minds of many.
post #24697 of 31016

Mimo Great post.  

 

I think what Ben is attempting to do is very impressive and noble.  Its definitely a tough road to travel.  I think the "Made in China" label will be tough for many to get past particularly if some of the watches end up costing a few thousand dollars.  People (particularly those outside of Asia) just don't associate Asia as being a producer of high quality luxury watches.  

 

Even those that academically think the Grand Seikos are great watches, don't often buy them.  In the past few people told me how great the Grand Seiko is and that they would buy one...funny thing is that when they have been able to buy a luxury watch they seem to come home with a Rolex, Omega, or other brand more commonly associated with luxury goods, rather than the Grand Seiko they previously spoke about purchasing.

 

I admire what Ben is doing and I hope that he will have success doing it, or at least a lot of fun.   

post #24698 of 31016

I'm not sure the origin is holding back Grand Seiko.  I just don't think they're pretty enough.  Ben's ideas are, IMHO.

post #24699 of 31016
Been away too long to properly respond to all that has been going on here, sorry.

Just want to share a cool birthday cake.

post #24700 of 31016
Quote:
Originally Posted by in stitches View Post

Been away too long to properly respond to all that has been going on here, sorry.

Just want to share a cool birthday cake.

 

That is an awesome birthday cake, stitchyI  I would be overjoyed if someone gave me this as a cake on my birthday hahahah!

 

This being TWAT, I feel morally obliged to point out a few things:

 

1.  This being a chrono, I am not sure where the pushers are.

 

2.  I love all the all-gold + bracelet construction but I suspect Rolex might have a beef with Patek if Patek came out with an oyster bracelet-like thingy on one of their references.

 

3.  Where is the "1"?  It goes from "31" to "2" - and, as you yourself might point out, there ain't no dot between the "31" and "1" (well, because there is no "1").

 

Just being facetious here.  I love the coolness factor of this heh heh.  

 

mimo - I am not ignoring your concise analysis of what goes into play when it comes to watch pricing.  I do like how you wrote out what many of us were probably thinking about relative pricing.  As I believe apropos pointed out in a post long ago, here or perhaps in TPP, at the end of the day it does boil down to certain watchmakers charging what they do for their timepieces... because they can; because the market will take it; because customer demand for their output is such that even if the absolute number of watches sold drops (because fewer people can or want to pay for them), their profitability still increases because they earn more revenues for charging higher prices.

 

And since you mentioned economists, what I basically said translates to: dq/dp < 0 but dTR/dp > 0 -> d(profits)/dp > 0.  :teach:

post #24701 of 31016
Re Grand Seiko;

I'm considering one. Either the Snowflake or the SBGA073. I think the big problem with GS is that so many models look like each other or have the most subtle of differences. I do like the overall design cues. For me the big attractant would be the Spring Drive. I don't see buying any of the conventional escapment models vs. say an Aqua Terra.

I really like the Spring Drive. My Landmaster gains less than a second a day and its power reserve lets me manage wearing my other watches.
post #24702 of 31016

Grand Seikos are bloody fantastic.  I'm not sure I accept the generalization that people talk about admiring them but don't actually buy them - I know plenty of guys who have taken the plunge, myself included.  I have absolutely no doubt that I will own one again.

 

Keep in mind that they aren't produced in great numbers and aren't widely available in brick and mortar North American retailers (precious few in the States and all of one in Canada).  Comparatively speaking, there's a Rolex available for purchase on every street corner.  It's hardly shocking that their representation among watch enthusiasts (not to mention the hordes of mindless badge whores and pretentious poseurs who wouldn't touch a Seiko with a 10 foot pole) vastly exceeds that of GS.

 

post #24703 of 31016
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hayward View Post

Re Grand Seiko;

I'm considering one. Either the Snowflake or the SBGA073. I think the big problem with GS is that so many models look like each other or have the most subtle of differences. I do like the overall design cues. For me the big attractant would be the Spring Drive. I don't see buying any of the conventional escapment models vs. say an Aqua Terra.

I really like the Spring Drive. My Landmaster gains less than a second a day and its power reserve lets me manage wearing my other watches.

Hi Hayward, 

 

I actually thought you owned one currently.  I agree many of the designs look the same, and that could be a factor also.  Some of their designs don't seem very different from a regular Seiko my father owned years ago.  They are well made, but they face some tough competition in their price range.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerP View Post
 

Grand Seikos are bloody fantastic.  I'm not sure I accept the generalization that people talk about admiring them but don't actually buy them - I know plenty of guys who have taken the plunge, myself included.  I have absolutely no doubt that I will own one again.

 

Keep in mind that they aren't produced in great numbers and aren't widely available in brick and mortar North American retailers (precious few in the States and all of one in Canada).  Comparatively speaking, there's a Rolex available for purchase on every street corner.  It's hardly shocking that their representation among watch enthusiasts (not to mention the hordes of mindless badge whores and pretentious poseurs who wouldn't touch a Seiko with a 10 foot pole) vastly exceeds that of GS.

 

The fact that you owned one is great, so you put your money where your mouth is.  You don't have to accept my generalization, doesn't bother me at all.  

 

I wasn't speaking about the relative number of Rolex, Omegas, or Breitlings sold compared to GS.  The average person, probably hasn't even heard of GS.  I was speaking about plenty of collectors I hear that talk about getting one, but they can't quite get themselves to spend that kind of money on a high end Seiko.  

 

I hear plenty of BS from people saying how great they are and that they intend to buy one, but when push comes to shove they purchase Omegas, Rolex, Breitlings whatever.  I'm well aware that Seiko doesn't really distribute Grand Seikos in the US.  However, have you considered if they wanted to market and sell them here on a greater scale, then they could.  They are not some tiny upstart company.  In addition, if someone collects watches, and knows about GS and really wants one, with the internet, or travel there is no reason they can't buy one.  However, in its price range their relative lack of status and brand perception does affect their sales.  Like it or not there are always people that are going to say for the price of a GS they can have a Rolex, Omega, Breitling, etc.  I didn't say that Rolex, Omega, or Breitling were better, just that are more commonly chosen due to the perception that many people have of them being luxury brands.   If you think GS's sales aren't hurt by being made in Japan, by being made by Seiko, and a relative lack of association of Seiko products as luxury items...then maybe you are only seeing what you want to see.  

post #24704 of 31016
Quote:
Originally Posted by in stitches View Post

Been away too long to properly respond to all that has been going on here, sorry.

Just want to share a cool birthday cake.

 

Very cool Bday cake!  

post #24705 of 31016
Glad you enjoyed. Sadly not mine though, guys. But for a man I know who is a collector.
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