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post #24391 of 37470
Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerP View Post

stitchy - for me, it wold take just one experience like that of the GP owner to get me to pay attention to resale value.  I consider myself a watch enthusiast more than a watch collector.  That is, I don't endlessly accumulate watches building a 'collection'.  I generally have 6 or 8 quality pieces - certainly never more than a dozen.  For me, if a watch isn't getting worn, I don't keep it - and only so many can be worn in a given week or two.  Since my 'collection' is always evolving (sometimes very slowly, sometimes quickly) with the arrival of a new piece and the departure of an old one, resale definitely matters.  That doesn't mean I wouldn't buy a GP.  It means I would buy it for pennies on the dollar in the secondary market versus new from an AD.

 

Yes.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RogerP View Post

 

Yes - service is a consideration - in terms of availability, cost and turnaround time. I happen to have a friend who is an Omega-trained watchmaker, capable of servicing any Swatch Group product. That is a huge plus for me. I have a similar connection for Rolex, through a fellow long time collector. Prospective ease of service is defiitely a consideration for me.

 

Yes!

Warning: Kate Upton flashing two thumbs up. With (some) clothes on, but may be NSFW. (Click to show)

 

 

 

post #24392 of 37470

But back to stitchy's original question and how he framed it:

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by in stitches View Post


good points as always, dino. the only thing that i dont fully agree on is the back. the smaller movement does not really bother me all that much, and with a pretty movement as this watch had, i would opt to be able to see it, even though it is clearly smaller than the case size should dictate.

but what i really want to focus on is the bold, because it hits on something i was wondering today.

the guy that i met with was probably in his late 50s, well spoken, and probably made some money and wanted to buy a nice watch for himself and his wife, and walked into an AD and decided on the GPs. now, you never know, he could have been strapped for cash, but i doubt it. i can usually read that from experience and dont think that was the case here.

he simply said the watches were not getting any wear, which was certainly true, they looked like they were never worn, and he had a much more casual vibe, he was relaxed and southern from the carolinas, than id expect from someone with that model watch. though you can never tell these things, i do think it just turned out it wasnt the model for him and his wife, and he decided to sell.

but i think many times, maybe most times, that does not happen. meaning, the buyer never needs or desires to sell their watch. a person goes into an AD looking for a luxury watch, does not really know a ton about high end watches, and does not really want to or need to, which is fine. such a person probably would explain to an AD what they wanted, in terms of style and price, and wold be be led to a handful of models by the SA, and then choose from that lot. maybe they even they did a little homework online too, but nothing terribly in depth. this type of buyer is not concerned with resale on the secondary market, and is equally unconcerned about the hierarchy or prestige of brands amongst high end watches. they just want something fancy and luxurious that they like and can afford. and thats what they get.

they say ignorance is bliss, and i wonder how happy we would all be if we bought our watches like that. not based on MSRPs of other brands versus the watch we like, or based on resale vale or prestige of maker, just solely based on what we liked for looks.

if you did that, do you think you would have the same watches in your stable, or do you think you would have something else?

im not saying that this would prove we make bad decisions or are untrue to ourselves. quite the opposite, i think the way we look at watches here in the TWAT is great, and id never want it any other way. its a different type of vantage point with different objectives and desires, and its just as fair and sensible as the less concerned/informed buyer. there is no wrong answer or wrong way to make ones personal purchase decisions. i just wonder if our decisions would be the same if we took some of our more nuanced bullet points of our lists.

ill try and answer this for myself later, but i need to mull it over more to give an intellectually honest answer.

 

My personal answer, fortunately, is a resounding yes.

post #24393 of 37470
In regards to the caseback, I think this is one of the main things that bothers me about GP. Over and over again, GP releases a watch with a movement that is just way too damn small for the case. And that is just a huge pet peeve of mine. Just sheer laziness. Like let us check this one out. The new GP 1966 Integrated Chrono looks gorgeous, and is 40mm. But look at the caseback. Yeesh! For 35,000 CHF that is just too much of an oversight to me.



First, regarding resale value. I think this is a tough question to answer. I think that anyone who is aware of resale prices considers them in a purchase of any watch. I do not think that I have ever made a decision that was strongly influenced by resale value. However, to me, resale kind of adds into the mystique that surrounds certain brands. It is attractive to me that if I bought a certain Patek, it is possible that it will be valued at a price that far exceeds what I paid for it further down the road. It definitely plays into my psyche. And it also speaks volumes about the strength of that company as a manufacturer.

However, with regards to brands like Blancpain or GP, there are certainly a few watches in their lineups that really do appeal to me. I will add Breguet into this equation. But at $30,000, they are in some damn stiff competition.

But to finally answer your question, I do think that I would likely have different watches in the stable if I were to purchase a watch “blindly.” However, I think this is something of a non-issue for me, and probably for most of us TWATters. I do not think there is one thing that I buy that I do not research first. I do not buy anything solely based on looks. Whether it be a watch, a suit, a pair of shoes, a dishwasher, a sofa, beer, liquor, you name it. If I am buying something, I am researching it. What is the purpose of a beautiful dial if it is poorly made and overpriced? Why buy an ergonomically designed dishwasher that is known to constantly break down (not sure why dishwashers are on the mind)? So I think that I would possibly purchase different watches, but it would be such a vacuous purchase. I think that you should put some thought into anything that you are spending $10,000, $20,000, or $30,000 on. So I guess I have to disagree with your statement that “it’s a different type of vantage point with different objectives and desires, and its just as fair and sensible as the less concerned / informed buyer.” I think that buying things without research is just kind of silly. But that belief is just a function of who I am.

On the flip side, I think that there might be less flipping if we were all to buy the watches that we wanted, rather than the watches we think we should want. When I look at WUS, I constantly see JLC quoted as everyone’s favorite brand, along with a line like “JLC is just so classy,” or “JLC has such a great reputation.” I love JLC as much as the next guy. But JLC is hellishly boring at times. There is just no way that so many people can love JLC. There are not enough classy people out there. I think that TRF kind of has it right. Sure, some of the guys over there have very questionable tastes, but at least they are happy! They embrace their garish, bejeweled Rolexes, and cater to what they really want. There is a reason that Hublot is so popular.

I apologize for the holes in my argument, I am sure that there are several. I jumped around with reckless abandon.
post #24394 of 37470
Quote:
Originally Posted by no frills View Post

OMFG, OM. What an awesome picture to post.  That is of course Arnold Palmer, who has earned his share of accolades in his field.  I will forgive him for being so close to the Official TWAT Princess (deliberately, in italics). 

 

Your guess may well be right.  Arnold has been featured in Rolex ads with the gold Day-Date since at least the early 1980s.

 

smile.gif

 

As a golf nut, I actually recognized him before her. Mr. Palmer has still got it.

 

 

 

PS: What (else) is she wearing there?

post #24395 of 37470
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newcomer View Post

 I constantly see JLC quoted as everyone’s favorite brand, along with a line like “JLC is just so classy,” or “JLC has such a great reputation.” I love JLC as much as the next guy. But JLC is hellishly boring at times. 

 

Fair point, and a conclusion I reached only yesterday while looking at some.  Also, there are many makers who put movements in oversized cases - Omega up even to AP.  But JLC could also have that finger pointed, having expanded the size of the Reversos, for instance, but padded in the same little engine as the smaller models.  Not that I'm especially down on JLC - they have some things that I love, including some overgrown Reversos!  

 

I think there's an element of fickle fashion in which brands hold their credibility - like JLC - while others as mentioned, despite also having a proud history, do not.  But perhaps JLC is saved not just by a herd mentality among watch geeks, but also by having a couple of very distinctive ranges that are really nothing like what anyone else does - Reverso and Duometre spring to mind.  Hence if one really is a "collector", it would be hard to leave JLC out of the display case.  GP or BP perhaps a little easier.

post #24396 of 37470
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega Male View Post

 

smile.gif

 

As a golf nut, I actually recognized him before her. Mr. Palmer has still got it.

 

 

 

PS: What (else) is she wearing there?

 

OM, I see this is breaking news for today (Arnold Palmer giving lessons to the Official TWAT Princess presumably sometime yesterday).


This picture makes me want to shake Arnold Palmer's hand and punch him in the gut at the same time. So, I think I will do this: I will pretend to shake his hand, and then right when he reaches out, I will move swiftly to punch his gut, then land an overhand left on his temple.  WTF.

 

On a TWAT-related note, yes, what watch is Kate Upton wearing?  I think this is actually the first time I've ever seen her wearing a watch.

post #24397 of 37470
I think this may be the crowning achievement in Arnold Palmer's life. Is it wrong that I am feeling overly protective?
post #24398 of 37470

I say a gold Cartier Santos  

 

She has weird gums. Still, I expect Arnold keeps his gnashers in a glass by the bed, so he's no cause to notice.

post #24399 of 37470
great replies, guys!

i want to touch on a few points that were made


roger
for me, it wold take just one experience like that of the GP owner to get me to pay attention to resale value. I consider myself a watch enthusiast more than a watch collector.
newC
“it’s a different type of vantage point with different objectives and desires, and its just as fair and sensible as the less concerned / informed buyer.” I think that buying things without research is just kind of silly. But that belief is just a function of who I am.
frilly
I think that if you are so self-aware that you really believe your collection will soon be finalized with the acquisition of just this one last piece, and that you would not find yourself in a position where you need to resell the watch for one reason or another (meaning, well, you can predict the future pretty well)... then by all means, you can go ahead and go by pure aesthetics and emotional pull, budget permitting.

i am on board with this personally, however, i was addressing a different type of shopper. there are people that are not collectors or enthusiasts. they just want one nice fancy watch. they may buy one every 10 years, or maybe just once in their life. they just want to experience owning a luxury watch that they can enjoy.

to that end, why should they care that a watch may have a movement smaller than the case that you can see through a sapphire crystal? to this buyer, the fact they can see the beautiful movement at all is far more meaningful than worrying about why the manufacture did not create a new larger movement.

why should they care about resale? they will likely never resell. more likely they will keep it, or give it to a kid/grandkid. and if they take a big hit a decade down the road, i doubt they would care. does a guy who uses a bentley for a decade care about depreciation? he just wants a luxury experience and is willing to pay for it. the back end, should it arise, is what it is.

as an aside, i wouldnt quite compare it to shoes or suits, because the shelf life is not comparable. the "quality" issue in expensive shoes is more of an issue than in watches. its unlikely that a guy buying a GP or BP or breguet or what not, will end up with shoddy quality not consummate with the purchase price. just minimal resale value as result of low secondary market interest. and by the way, that market is mostly guys like us. if for whatever reason, we as a whole all of sudden fell in love with these brands, the secondary market would sky rocket. its not a result of quality or craftsmanship, just the particular desires of watch enthusiasts and collectors.

that is why i feel that for many people, there is no need for much research, it will only make their decision harder and less enjoyable. they can be confident in the quality of the piece they are purchasing, and they can thoroughly enjoy it, and i think thats great.

again, that is not me. not by a long shot, but i think its a perfectly reasonable approach to buying things. and sometimes i envy the ability of a less concerned buyer to look at aesthetics more objectively.


i will address my actual question later. still mulling on it.
---

as to JLC being hellishly boring, some models yes, but they have some envelope pushing stuff too. also, i am a HUGE fanboi of JLC.
post #24400 of 37470

There are always going to be different kinds of consumers for big-ticket items. There are those who plot a particular purchase over time and actually get additional pleasure from the chase itself -- narrowing down the alternatives to exactly the right piece, deciding exactly what it's worth, then going out and getting it for that. And there are those who just see something, like it and buy it. Nothing fundamentally wrong with either approach, but the former group are by definition going to take less of a bath in any secondary market if it does come to that. 

post #24401 of 37470
Quote:
Originally Posted by in stitches View Post

great replies, guys!

i want to touch on a few points that were made


roger
for me, it wold take just one experience like that of the GP owner to get me to pay attention to resale value. I consider myself a watch enthusiast more than a watch collector.
newC
“it’s a different type of vantage point with different objectives and desires, and its just as fair and sensible as the less concerned / informed buyer.” I think that buying things without research is just kind of silly. But that belief is just a function of who I am.
frilly
I think that if you are so self-aware that you really believe your collection will soon be finalized with the acquisition of just this one last piece, and that you would not find yourself in a position where you need to resell the watch for one reason or another (meaning, well, you can predict the future pretty well)... then by all means, you can go ahead and go by pure aesthetics and emotional pull, budget permitting.

i am on board with this personally, however, i was addressing a different type of shopper. there are people that are not collectors or enthusiasts. they just want one nice fancy watch. they may buy one every 10 years, or maybe just once in their life. they just want to experience owning a luxury watch that they can enjoy.

to that end, why should they care that a watch may have a movement smaller than the case that you can see through a sapphire crystal? to this buyer, the fact they can see the beautiful movement at all is far more meaningful than worrying about why the manufacture did not create a new larger movement.

why should they care about resale? they will likely never resell. more likely they will keep it, or give it to a kid/grandkid. and if they take a big hit a decade down the road, i doubt they would care. does a guy who uses a bentley for a decade care about depreciation? he just wants a luxury experience and is willing to pay for it. the back end, should it arise, is what it is.

as an aside, i wouldnt quite compare it to shoes or suits, because the shelf life is not comparable. the "quality" issue in expensive shoes is more of an issue than in watches. its unlikely that a guy buying a GP or BP or breguet or what not, will end up with shoddy quality not consummate with the purchase price. just minimal resale value as result of low secondary market interest. and by the way, that market is mostly guys like us. if for whatever reason, we as a whole all of sudden fell in love with these brands, the secondary market would sky rocket. its not a result of quality or craftsmanship, just the particular desires of watch enthusiasts and collectors.

that is why i feel that for many people, there is no need for much research, it will only make their decision harder and less enjoyable. they can be confident in the quality of the piece they are purchasing, and they can thoroughly enjoy it, and i think thats great.

again, that is not me. not by a long shot, but i think its a perfectly reasonable approach to buying things. and sometimes i envy the ability of a less concerned buyer to look at aesthetics more objectively.


i will address my actual question later. still mulling on it.
---

as to JLC being hellishly boring, some models yes, but they have some envelope pushing stuff too. also, i am a HUGE fanboi of JLC.

 

stitchy - yes, you did describe this type of shopper.  And - no disrespect to Rolex or to this type of buyer either - I suspect that for the $5,000 to $10,000 price point, a brand like Rolex will have many, many, many buyers who are like this. 

 

I'm not sure this holds for watches priced at higher points, or other manufacturers.  I'd be willing to bet a large number of first-time Rolex buyers are like this.  Again, no hate for the relatively uninformed buyer: it's their money to spend.  For a variety of reasons, the relative prestige attached to Rolex, its popularity and the price point of some of its most popular, classic models lends itself to this.

 

Disagree?

post #24402 of 37470

The Tyre-Kicker's Diary

 

Dear Friends,

 

As I mentioned above, I spent the last two days in Dubai for administrative reasons, without an awful lot useful to do.  I did catch up with an old friend or two, but rather than sit in my hotel room on the computer and do something productive, I basically spent most of my time in the Dubai Mall.  Aside from a few shoe shops and a movie, my time was dedicated pretty much entirely to wasting the time of salespeople in watch boutiques.

 

That perhaps came out a little meaner than I meant it.  During the day time, mid week, these places are very quiet.  Sales assistants are standing around to attention, mostly a bit bored, and more than happy to chat about their collections, comparisons and competitors, with someone who now has (thanks to you guys), at least the basic knowledge of a new sales assistant!  And my tyre-kicking wasn't entirely insincere, of course.  I might be broke right now, and the tiny acquisition I have in mind over the next few weeks might be laughable compared to the wonders that I saw this week.  But as others have mentioned, anyone who's interested in a watch is a potential customer.  Business has good years and bad years.  And for my next good year, someone's going to benefit, at least in some small way.  And it's likely to be one of them.

 

From my point of view, I got to hang out in some very well decorated and pleasant surroundings, drink some surprisingly decent free coffee, and chat to some pleasant and knowledgeable people about things in which I have developed an interest.  I was able, like a small boy sitting on a fire engine, to have the fantasy experience of putting insanely complicated and expensive things on my wrist.  And perhaps more importantly, to establish from among those things I think I might be able to buy one day, which would actually work for me, and which wouldn't.  From the sales assistants' point of view, they got to be seen to be busy by the boss, with someone who was polite, friendly and I hope stimulating company, and who they could reasonably hope will be a customer some day.  That is, of course, if they care: companies in this region pay zero or terrible commission, so it's often just a wage game.  In which case, I think they just enjoyed having a visitor to talk to.

 

I'm conscious in all this that our friend Nuke has had a terrible experience of being (mis) assessed by sales assistants and ignored. I, as someone with small change in my pocket and less in the bank, was treated well everywhere.  It helps being forty-one, of a certain physical presence, and the confidence born of age and experience to wander into such a place like I'm expecting a round of applause.  Good shoes and a recently tailored Canali sports jacket also helped, I imagine.  That I'd thrifted the latter (first time in my life!) for ten bucks the week before was known only to me, but the adjustments worked well, and as I was probably the only man in the entire "World's Largest" mall wearing a jacket, certainly by choice, I suppose I would have made an impression.  I only hope that a shorts-wearing Chinese billionaire wasn't ignored at some stage because I was taking my time!  

 

There were a couple of things I said that got me taken seriously as well, I think: asking about specific models and what's new, gave the sales assistants somewhere to start and showed I had at least a passing interest in the brand.  Wearing a watch with a story (my 43 year old Omega) was a nice ice breaker too.  Also, I asked about the reasonably priced pieces and only admired the great wonders in their cases.  Until we had a rapport, after which I'd say quite clearly that I would probably never be able to buy such a thing, and then ask to have a look anyway just for fun.  That is not a concept alien to shop assistants, and perfectly acceptable once they've found you to be a pleasant person and showing a genuine interest - even in their entry level models.

 

Anyway, tyre-kicking tips over.  Time to talk about some specific watches.  I'll do each boutique as a separate post, but spoiler the content so I don't stuff up the whole page with my ramblings.  Also because the pictures might be large - my Blackberry camera is useless, for which I apologise in advance.  I'll therefore upload full size to compensate for the blur and poor quality!

 

And to close this introduction, a repeat of yesterday's:  I didn't see anything I actually thought I'd ever buy in Blancpain, so flat out asked to see the minute repeater just for my own amusement.  I only went in because I saw it in the window.  As the place was entirely empty, they were only too happy.  Here's a rotated pic for better viewing.  I have to say, it is a remarkable looking beast:

CARROUSEL RÉPÉTITION MINUTES CHRONOGRAPHE FLYBACK (Click to show)

 

 

 

 

 

 

Now, onward: first stop Cartier.

post #24403 of 37470
Quote:
Originally Posted by Omega Male View Post


PS: What (else) is she wearing there?

too much. thats for sure. lets see if she can wear less next time.
post #24404 of 37470
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRK33 View Post

All this (extremely thought-provoking) discussion around resale value prompted me to seek some advice from my fellow TWAT experts - I have been considering the following limited edition VC Overseas Chronograph (being first generation Greek in the U.S. it really speaks to me):

http://blog.perpetuelle.com/watches/vacheron-constantin-overseas-chronograph-for-greece/

Retail on the watch was close to 15K euros - what do you folks think might be reasonable on the secondary market for a NIB with all papers, plastics on, and open warranty card?

Not really sure how the VC Overseas Chronograph does on the secondary market, so would love any insight.

As always, thanks in advance.

cant speak on this exact model, but the VC overseas can be had for 10K if youre diligent.
post #24405 of 37470
Quote:
Originally Posted by no frills View Post

stitchy - yes, you did describe this type of shopper.  And - no disrespect to Rolex or to this type of buyer either - I suspect that for the $5,000 to $10,000 price point, a brand like Rolex will have many, many, many buyers who are like this. 
I'm not sure this holds for watches priced at higher points, or other manufacturers.  I'd be willing to bet a large number of first-time Rolex buyers are like this.  Again, no hate for the relatively uninformed buyer: it's their money to spend.  For a variety of reasons, the relative prestige attached to Rolex, its popularity and the price point of some of its most popular, classic models lends itself to this.
Disagree?

yes, rolex probably gets the brunt of these customers in the 5-10k range. in the 2k range it goes a lot to TAG. and then omega steps in. but the guy i dealt with had watches with MSRPs of 16.5k and 20.1k, with tax that akmost 40k, and i gather he payed damn close to full retail. i am quite certain this customer exists in every price point. there is a lot of money out there. almost everyone knows luxury watches are cool and wants one, and plenty of people with cash to spare fall into this category ime. they just want to play the game a little, have some bling on the wrist yadda yadda yadda ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by DerekS View Post

too much. thats for sure. lets see if she can wear less next time.

nod[1].gif
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