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The Watch Appreciation Thread - Page 1551

post #23251 of 35897
Quote:
Originally Posted by no frills View Post

We give a crap about this stuff, don't we!
Thought you might enjoy that!

One thing I'll say about the horizontally-coupled mechanisms that you'll likely appreciate... they definitely look better. There's a lot less to see with a vertical mechanism, and it vastly reduces the amount of skilled hand work involved. Details, for sure, but someone who's into high-grade watches is generally going to have an interest because these nuances are what a high-end movement is all about. There's more than one way to solve the puzzle.
post #23252 of 35897
Quote:
Originally Posted by in stitches View Post

sidebar - for anyone unsure about rolex as a brand, watchtime did some EXCELLENT interviews and articles on rolex. the brand, the watches, the facility, the processes.... they are fantastic. almost impossible to read all of it and not be awed by who they are as a company and a manufacture. im sure you can find it online in their archive, and i highly recommend reading those pieces.

 

If you don't care much for Rolex but care about Patek, for the record I've spoken to several master watchmakers and administrators at Patek USA and Geneva and they all say that they do reference Rolex for the quality of their production (especially given the numbers they produce), and even their management practices (with their watchmakers, automation, pricing, etc).  I have seen many watchmakers who work for Patek - but wear a Rolex.  Quote from Thierry Stern here: "Rolex is another one I respect a lot. The quality of Rolex is fantastic, and to keep that so high making as many watches as they do is incredible. I would love to see the Rolex factory, but they never let me in!"

 

http://www.hodinkee.com/blog/2012/1/12/interview-thierry-stern-president-of-patek-philippe.html

 

If you don't care one bit for Rolex or Patek, then... I guess we can share a cup of coffee and talk about other things.

post #23253 of 35897
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnguy001 View Post

I would've much preferred his El Primero Steel Daytona over the gold Sub personally. I admit I don't have the knowledge to appreciate all the subtleties in the different dials and what makes them rare though. I was a little nervous watching him wear the gold Sub during that trial week - in one shot, he was wearing a bracelet with the metal clasp almost rubbing against the watch! Seems a no-no for a trial run!

Well as an owner of a 16520 Steel Daytona with El Primero based movement, I have to say myself would not have made that trade.  For me the SS Daytona with El Primero base was a grail watch, and took me a few years to locate and obtain at list price.  Its not as practical as the current model (shorter power reserve, and the bracelet and clasp are not solid machine pieces), but I find the dial a tad more attractive and refined with the smaller lum markers, I prefer the continuous seconds placement at 9 rather than 6, and from what someone had told me years ago, there were so many modifications and improvements to the El Primero base, that is was really the closest thing to a hand made movement that Rolex was making at the time, or would ever make again.  I do have the new Daytona also, and its a great watch, better in almost every way in terms of practicality, but there are certain nuances that will always make the El Primero based Daytonas special to me.  

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belligero View Post


I was thinking the same thing; the 18K Submariner is great in its own way, but I think the Zenith Daytona, especially in stainless, is a much more practical choice as the mythical "one watch", as well as being more inherently interesting.

An 18K '80s Submariner on bracelet can be completely bad-ass for those who can pull off the look, or as a special-occasion piece for mere mortals. But as a daily wearer, I'm not so sure... plus it's a bit compromised from a purist's standpoint. The 4030-movement Daytona doesn't have the cognitive dissonance factor of a precious-metal diver's watch. Not saying that I wouldn't love an 18K Sub (or better yet, older GMT), just that I probably wouldn't dump a 16520 and a nice steel Sub (can't remember if was plus cash in this case, but I bet it was) for one.

Regarding that generation of Daytonæ, my local watchmaker friend spent three weeks this June at Rolex's advanced course in Geneva, where one of the calibres they covered was the 4030 — along with the OysterQuartz, but that one deserves its own post as it's an under-appreciated gem of a watch. He talked about how much he enjoyed learning about and working on the modified Zenith movement, and how much his appreciation for it has increased after getting training straight from the mothership. He considers it to be one of the best examples of classic horizontally-coupled chronograph construction ever produced from a design standpoint, and the modifications that constitute 50% the base-movement parts make it an even more refined and reliable movement than the quite-good-on-its-own standard El Primero. Zenith has gradually phased in some of Rolex's refinements to its current-production versions as well; that was news to me. He said that he has rarely felt as satisfied as a watchmaker as when he was doing the course work on that one, and that he looks forward to having them on his workbench more than ever. No wonder they were so hard to get at retail; quite a bit of traditional watchmaking effort went into each one. The newer one is an "engineering masterpiece" in his opinion, but relies far less on traditional methods for its manufacture.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

While on the subject of classic chronographs, another detail that I remembered from our conversation was the description of some of the subtler ways that a high-grade chronograph movement, such any produced by Patek Philippe, differs from one that's less finely finished; the switching mechanism for the chronograph wheel is hand-filed to as fine of a tolerance as possible to minimize the jump of the seconds hand when the system is engaged. However, the current Patek chrono movement instead uses a vertical clutch, which completely eliminates any jump. I guess you kind of have to be a watch geek to give a crap about this stuff, but I really enjoyed the conversation.


Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

So yes, I figure that the show's narrator probably should have kept the 16520 as well. But it just goes to show the inherent irrationality of the game, and as much as we try to analyze it from a rational standpoint, it's subjective in the end. The piece certainly did a good job of showing the capriciousness and emotional elements that exist. Plus it's not difficult to understand the appeal of an old-school Submariner in gold; they look tremendous in person.

Returning to Zenith movements, I recently got to talking to someone who was sporting a Vintage 1969 El Primero in 18K, and it was simply a knockout. What a sculpture; the statement that really stayed with me from the Tom Bolt feature was that "watches are for wearing", and this one was absolutely great on the wrist:

 

Zenith Vintage 1969 chrono in 18K (Click to show)

Yes, it did cost the narrator his Daytona, a Sub, a Bell & Ross, and a Bvlgari, plus I believe cash because he said the 18K Sub was a bit beyond his budget.  

 

Certainly interesting to hear about your watchmaker friend's impressions of the cal 4030 Daytonas and OYSTERQUARTZ.  I own each in all steel and they are both fantastic pieces...although as your friend suggested the OQ is rather under appreciated (often quickly dismissed because it is a quartz watch).   I probably would not have traded my a Daytona with cal 4030 toward a gold Sub, but everyone is different, and whether its the aesthetics of the all gold watch, its vintage style dial, its movement, or something else that appealed to him we don't know.  In addition, sometimes people do get caught up in the newness of a piece they do not own.  More telling as to whether it was a good choice for him, is whether there is follow up information as to what currently resides on his wrist.  Does he still own the vintage gold Sub or is it gone and has he traded it for something else.  Every now and then I've read stories on forums where someone sells/trades a watch to get a different watch, only to regret the sale or trade and  we later find out that the person bought back or bought another example of the watch they traded (often at a higher cost than if they kept their original).  Collectors can be finicky, fickle, and at times impossible to predict or understand...and perhaps that is what makes this hobby so interesting. 

post #23254 of 35897
Quote:
Originally Posted by no frills View Post

If you don't care much for Rolex but care about Patek, for the record I've spoken to several master watchmakers and administrators at Patek USA and Geneva and they all say that they do reference Rolex for the quality of their production (especially given the numbers they produce), and even their management practices (with their watchmakers, automation, pricing, etc).  I have seen many watchmakers who work for Patek - but wear a Rolex.  Quote from Thierry Stern here: "Rolex is another one I respect a lot. The quality of Rolex is fantastic, and to keep that so high making as many watches as they do is incredible. I would love to see the Rolex factory, but they never let me in!"

very interesting. and great quote, lol.

Quote:
http://www.hodinkee.com/blog/2012/1/12/interview-thierry-stern-president-of-patek-philippe.html

If you don't care one bit for Rolex or Patek, then... I guess we can be enemies for life

FTFY
post #23255 of 35897
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belligero View Post

I was thinking the same thing; the 18K Submariner is great in its own way, but I think the Zenith Daytona, especially in stainless, is a much more practical choice as the mythical "one watch", as well as being more inherently interesting.

An 18K '80s Submariner on bracelet can be completely bad-ass for those who can pull off the look, or as a special-occasion piece for mere mortals. But as a daily wearer, I'm not so sure... plus it's a bit compromised from a purist's standpoint. The 4030-movement Daytona doesn't have the cognitive dissonance factor of a precious-metal diver's watch. Not saying that I wouldn't love an 18K Sub (or better yet, older GMT), just that I probably wouldn't dump a 16520 and a nice steel Sub (can't remember if was plus cash in this case, but I bet it was) for one.

Owning both the transitional 18k Sub in question and a Daytona (albeit the newer model), AND a couple of steel Subs: neither would I. Its main attraction is the nipple dial, which really sets it apart from the newer 18k Subs, but for which you pay a hefty premium. A gold/steel Sub or GMT of similar vintage will also get you that dial. If all you want is a gold Sub, I think the later 16618 is a killer deal. You'll get a lot of gold Rolex for your money.

But I wont't deny it, the nipple dialled 18k is a watch with a considerable magic to it. I can't think of any watch in my collection that has a similar wrist presence.

I must admit that my 16808 is a substitute for the 18k plexi 1680 I really wanted, but never found. I would still make the switch I think, plexi is sexi. But for now, I love it!

Klokkebilder668.jpg

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino944 View Post

I'd be dying to go see whatever my AD brought in for me.  You have incredible self restraint!  

Not sure that label fits any man owning more than a dousin expensive anachronistically imprecise time telling mechanical trinkets just because he likes the way they make him feel ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino944 View Post

Well as an owner of a 16520 Steel Daytona with El Primero based movement, I have to say myself would not have made that trade.  For me the SS Daytona with El Primero base was a grail watch, and took me a few years to locate and obtain at list price.  Its not as practical as the current model (shorter power reserve, and the bracelet and clasp are not solid machine pieces), but I find the dial a tad more attractive and refined with the smaller lum markers, I prefer the continuous seconds placement at 9 rather than 6, and from what someone had told me years ago, there were so many modifications and improvements to the El Primero base, that is was really the closest thing to a hand made movement that Rolex was making at the time, or would ever make again.  I do have the new Daytona also, and its a great watch, better in almost every way in terms of practicality, but there are certain nuances that will always make the El Primero based Daytonas special to me.  

All the movement considerations (which I agree with) aside: why on earth did they have to make the subdial rings silver? That alone makes the El Primero Daytona better to me. The white dial/ black subdial rings and the black dial/ white subdial rings look so much better. It is definitely one of the reasons I modded my Daytona, the silver in the white dial just washed out. I would not mind adding a Zenith Daytona to the flock. What a geek for details watch collecting makes you smile.gif
post #23256 of 35897
So I wanted to ask my TWAT-brethren for their help: I want to get my dad a wedding thank you present and obviously considering the frequency with which I visit this thread, it should be a watch. I wanted to keep it in the $3-5K range and unfortunately can't be pre-owned (my dad is idiosyncratic and vintage/pre-owned doesn't work for him). I really wanted to get him the new Tudor Chrono or Black Bay as those would be fun watches that he could enjoy and fit a hole in his collection. Unfortunately, I am in the U.S. and haven't been released here yet; my long time AD is checking if he can work his magic, but I was hoping anyone here might have a suggestion. I don't have any European travel coming up before my August 17th wedding, so that is an option. Do you think there is any chance a Tudor overseas AD would work with me to get me one? Any thoughts or suggestions would be really appreciated.
post #23257 of 35897
i <3 nipple dial sub.
post #23258 of 35897
Quote:
Originally Posted by NonServiam View Post

All the movement considerations (which I agree with) aside: why on earth did they have to make the subdial rings silver? That alone makes the El Primero Daytona better to me. The white dial/ black subdial rings and the black dial/ white subdial rings look so much better. It is definitely one of the reasons I modded my Daytona, the silver in the white dial just washed out. I would not mind adding a Zenith Daytona to the flock. What a geek for details watch collecting makes you smile.gif

I don't know why they switched, especially as the silver subdial trim rings were the originally one of the distinguishing features on the original Zenith based movement  WG Daytonas.  I like the contrast of black/white and white/black on the Daytonas.  Having a current model and a vintage Zenith based model, I have the best of both worlds so I won't complain...and if I did, I doubt Rolex would listen. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRK33 View Post

So I wanted to ask my TWAT-brethren for their help: I want to get my dad a wedding thank you present and obviously considering the frequency with which I visit this thread, it should be a watch. I wanted to keep it in the $3-5K range and unfortunately can't be pre-owned (my dad is idiosyncratic and vintage/pre-owned doesn't work for him). I really wanted to get him the new Tudor Chrono or Black Bay as those would be fun watches that he could enjoy and fit a hole in his collection. Unfortunately, I am in the U.S. and haven't been released here yet; my long time AD is checking if he can work his magic, but I was hoping anyone here might have a suggestion. I don't have any European travel coming up before my August 17th wedding, so that is an option. Do you think there is any chance a Tudor overseas AD would work with me to get me one? Any thoughts or suggestions would be really appreciated.

You may have a problem doing that.  Rolex has strict importation laws regarding bringing a Rolex into the US.  A person is allowed to bring 1 Rolex product purchased abroad into the USA on their physical person.  You are not allowed to ship them into the US, if customs catches you shipping a Rolex into the US, they confiscate the watch.  For years James Dowling a noted collector, seller and author of books on Rolex, had a disclaimer stating that he would not do sales of Rolex products to individuals in the US due to customs issues.  He would only sell to you, if you or a designated agent would be picking up the watch in person.  Some foreign dealer may work with you, but its at your own peril and if your package gets inspected and confiscated, it would be a really bad ending to a well intended idea.   

post #23259 of 35897

My local Tudor AD tells me they are absolutely prohibited from shipping watches to the US.  Too bad, the Black Bay is gorgeous, as is the new Heritage Chrono Blue.  Both are a nice way to add some colour to the rotation.

post #23260 of 35897
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino944 View Post

You may have a problem doing that.  Rolex has strict importation laws regarding bringing a Rolex into the US.  A person is allowed to bring 1 Rolex product purchased abroad into the USA on their physical person.  You are not allowed to ship them into the US, if customs catches you shipping a Rolex into the US, they confiscate the watch.  For years James Dowling a noted collector, seller and author of books on Rolex, had a disclaimer stating that he would not do sales of Rolex products to individuals in the US due to customs issues.  He would only sell to you, if you or a designated agent would be picking up the watch in person.  Some foreign dealer may work with you, but its at your own peril and if your package gets inspected and confiscated, it would be a really bad ending to a well intended idea.   

Dino, definitely read about that and you are 100% right. I would not want to go that route either and get my gift confiscated. My one thought is reaching out to an AD in Greece and have my cousin bring the watch into the country when he comes for the wedding.

Would you happen to have any alternative watch suggestions?
post #23261 of 35897
Quote:
Originally Posted by CHRK33 View Post


Dino, definitely read about that and you are 100% right. I would not want to go that route either and get my gift confiscated. My one thought is reaching out to an AD in Greece and have my cousin bring the watch into the country when he comes for the wedding.

Would you happen to have any alternative watch suggestions?


Unless he wears the watch there is the chance it may be confiscated. Do not have him bring the box and papers.

post #23262 of 35897
Quote:
Originally Posted by MSchott View Post


Unless he wears the watch there is the chance it may be confiscated. Do not have him bring the box and papers.

No, he can and should bring the box and papers.  My understanding is you are allowed to bring one watch on your person, that would include the box, papers etc.  If he doesn't bring the box and papers to a brand new watch and declare it, it might look as though he is trying to sneak a watch into the country without informing customs that it is being imported and attempting to avoid dealing with the customs fee.  They can either then levy a much larger fee on it, or maybe confiscate it for trying to sneak it in to the country.  The law isn't that he can't import a Rolex product, its that he can't SHIP it into the US.  He is allowed to bring 1 new Rolex product into the country.  As long as he declares it there is no reason to leave the box and papers somewhere else.  Still I'd advise CHRK to read up on the law regarding importing a Rolex/Rolex product so that he knows exactly what would have to be done to avoid any customs problems.  I have not read up on this topic in some time, so there could be some changes in the law.

 

It might be wise to consider another brand without the headaches that could be involved in trying to import a Tudor. 

post #23263 of 35897
I was also curious about shipping Tudors to the USA and found this http://forums.watchuseek.com/f23/buying-tudor-watches-sellers-outside-us-851704-2.html
which seems to indicate Rolex doesn't care...for now.

FWIW, over a decade ago I purchased a Tudor from overseas and had it shipped with no problem. This was during one of the periods when they were still selling Tudors in the USA.
The same dealer would NOT ship Rolex to USA.
post #23264 of 35897
Shouldn't someone make the obligatory Speedmaster recommendation?

Okay, I guess it's my turn.

CHRK: Congrats on your upcoming nuptials. Very thoughtful of you to consider a nice watch-gift for your father......how's about a 3570.50?
post #23265 of 35897

Hi Zippy, if I were CHRK, I would do my own homework and not take the advice of someone he doesn't know.  The guy on watchyouseek, could be 100% correct, but he could be wrong or things could have changed in the last 90 days. I previously advised him to check the restrictions as its been a while since I've looked at them.  I would imagine a gift that doesn't arrive due to customs seizure would put a serious damper on the giver's spirits at a time that should be fun and stress free.  

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