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The Watch Appreciation Thread - Page 1348

post #20206 of 34987
I'm going to PM Greg and ask if the TWAT thing was intentional.... I know he has been too busy for SF lately, but he really needs to read today's content.
post #20207 of 34987
Quote:
Originally Posted by in stitches View Post


blue is a great color. including the ice blue day-date. smile.gif
 

 

The ice blue is great.  For ladies.  Although last night I dreamed about that girly blue platinum Daytona that I had been ridiculing just hours earlier.  Maybe I'm a closet lover of ridiculous effeminate watches?

 

In the mean time, back to the subject of proper manly blues, I saw this and thought of you.  Happy birthday.

post #20208 of 34987
Quote:
Originally Posted by apropos View Post

I don't know, I'm sort of "over" the time-only Calatravas. Let me elaborate.

I understand that there is a lot of love for them out there but with the cumulative price rises over the last 10 years it just doesn't make any sense to me anymore. Sure you get a nice "classic" time-only dress watch, but for $20k to >$25k? Doesn't make sense to me - and in a sense it's qualitatively no different from that platinum Daytona. I can still remember a time when you could pick up a "basic" Calatrava for just over $10K from your dealer.

The watch hasn't changed. The movement certainly hasn't changed. Nothing's changed. The Calatrava of today is no "better" than the Calatrava of yesterday, and TBH there are a ton of alternatives out there that are in some ways more interesting from VC, GP, Piaget, etc.

Also let me state something which I have mentioned before - there appear to be "classes" of PP finish. You are not buying anything near the most finely finished PP, let alone the most finely finished watch, for your >$20k. Think about what $20-25K will get you from, say, JLC.
.

 

apropos, I actually completely agree with you regarding pricing for Calatravas. And I personally would never buy a time-only complications-free Calatrava for more than $10-$12K actually.  Neither would I gun for a new model that may not be available without a discount - want to make sure secondary market pricing settles in well before I pull the trigger on anything.

 

Doesn't prevent me from drooling a bit over this new 5227! biggrin.gif

 

Video here profiling the 5227:  http://vimeo.com/64786891#

 

But on that note, what do you think of the $20-$25K pricing - even for pre-owned pieces - for the stainless steel Nautilus line?

post #20209 of 34987
Quote:
Originally Posted by Warren G. View Post


A pretty underrated brand indeed.

In fact, beside the MontBlanc Rieussec, they make one of my favorite chronograph of all time. Cream dial, domed crystal, great size shog[1].gif

I had a chance to buy this a few months ago. I'm still kicking myself for not pulling the trigger. It is a relevantly rare watch, you just don't see them for sale.



Thats my absolute favorite GP as well. Such a lovely watch...absolute perfection if you ask me. I loce the cream dial with the blue and gold arabics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rohde88 View Post

Absolutely, I stalk and admire the watches that cost more than cars.

for most of my watch collecting years, every one of my watches cost more than my car until this year. shog[1].gif PRIORITIES!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino944 View Post

That acronym is freakin hilarious!  I wonder what the mods would say if they realized what the acronym is for the current name of this thread?  

That being said...there is probably never a bad day if you're in ....The Watch Appreciation Thread.

lol8[1].gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by no frills View Post


I kind of like this blue dial:





No, scratch that.  I absolutely love this blue dial.
thats a strong contender for my next purchase. Ive been tossing around the idea of clearing out the remaining watches i have and kopping this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by in stitches View Post

id rather one of each. after all, 2 grails are better than 1.

sound advice stitchy!
post #20210 of 34987
Quote:
Originally Posted by no frills View Post

apropos, I actually completely agree with you regarding pricing for Calatravas. And I personally would never buy a time-only complications-free Calatrava for more than $10-$12K actually.  Neither would I gun for a new model that may not be available without a discount - want to make sure secondary market pricing settles in well before I pull the trigger on anything.

Doesn't prevent me from drooling a bit over this new 5227! biggrin.gif


Video here profiling the 5227:  http://vimeo.com/64786891#

But on that note, what do you think of the $20-$25K pricing - even for pre-owned pieces - for the stainless steel Nautilus line?

I think Dino has touched on this topic before I did, and he really put into words what I had felt for a while but never could quite crystallise into a coherent opinion. Dealers around Asia Pacific always tell me there is a waiting list for the Nautilus - at Bangkok it was apparently 3.5-4 years. Four years. Think about it.

The price on the 2nd hand market accurately reflects this really high demand. But that demand is in a sense "artificial" - in essence they're doing a Hermes or de Beers: strangling supply on purpose to jack the price up and create a sense of exclusivity. I don't agree with it 100%, but on the other hand I can see why the brands do it. Why wouldn't they? You can make a heck of a lot more off a steel watch that objectively doesn't cost much to make, and increase brand prestige at the same time. And unlike de Beers, it's not as if people are digging Nautili (Nautiluses?) out of the ground.

IMO a great part of the appeal of the Nautilus is that you want a sporty watch (common) that no one else has (rare). Same for the RO. Yes, you can appreciate the other tangible things about it (finish, design, movement, etc) but if for some reason tomorrow the MSRP on the Nautilus became $2k and Joe Sixpack on Main Street had one too demand would crash through the floor.

To cast a cynical eye on it, it's really all about wankery. I just don't feel 100% comfortable that PP is actively encouraging the wanky bit of the equation, but c'est la vie - humans have been wankers for millenia, so I guess the die was cast a long time ago...

...after all, didn't I recently buy a watch with a red dial?

I'll admit it, it does make me feel like a special flower. A rather wanky special flower. And gosh darn it, this wankery business does feel good. I can see why everyone does it. shog[1].gifbiggrin.gif
post #20211 of 34987
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axelman 17 View Post

We should have shirts made up. "TWAT: Appreciating the finer things in life since 2007"

rotflmao.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by no frills View Post

 

The 5711/1A's blue dial is actually mesmerizing because it shimmers and becomes almost green and/or black depending on the lighting. It's really like staring out of a porthole into the ocean, which I suppose was Genta's intent.  You've probably seen the tons of threads around many other forums with people wanting variations of the Nautilus and others adamantly insisting that they'd rather keep the complications-free blue/green dial just to basically behold that divine color free of any perceived clutter.

I really like the 5711/A1 a lot, however the 5712/A1 might be my first choice of $$$ was not an object.  The dial is the same beautiful color, I like the movment's use of a micro rotor, and more importantly, IMHO its the only Nautilus with complications that really work with the design.  They don't over power it, its still a relatively slim case, and it adds some flavor to the Nautilus.   I find the chronograph a version a clunky mess that moves too far from the the original design's sleekness which helped make the original so versatile, and the annual calendar just looks disjointed and unappealing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Newcomer View Post


The Nautilus has to be one of the best one-watches. Either this or the RO. Definitely one of my 'grail' pieces. I like that the Nautilus is the road less travelled as well. That always appeals to me. I do not think I would get any variation, I honestly think that yours is the best.

This would be the other one I would consider strongly:

inlove.gif  Stunning!

Quote:
Originally Posted by apropos View Post

I don't know, I'm sort of "over" the time-only Calatravas. Let me elaborate.

I understand that there is a lot of love for them out there but with the cumulative price rises over the last 10 years it just doesn't make any sense to me anymore. Sure you get a nice "classic" time-only dress watch, but for $20k to >$25k? Doesn't make sense to me - and in a sense it's qualitatively no different from that platinum Daytona. I can still remember a time when you could pick up a "basic" Calatrava for just over $10K from your dealer.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)


The watch hasn't changed. The movement certainly hasn't changed. Nothing's changed. The Calatrava of today is no "better" than the Calatrava of yesterday, and TBH there are a ton of alternatives out there that are in some ways more interesting from VC, GP, Piaget, etc.

Also let me state something which I have mentioned before - there appear to be "classes" of PP finish. You are not buying anything near the most finely finished PP, let alone the most finely finished watch, for your >$20k. Think about what $20-25K will get you from, say, JLC.

 

I'm pretty sure that platinum, especially in its usual alloys, is actually softer than 18k gold. (yes, I've been doing some reading sitchy... shog[1].gif )
Now that's a nice watch! Just added it to my hitlist.

Completely agree regarding Calatrava.  While I like the new 5227, I just think Patek's pricing has gotten ridculous.  They make a beautiful product but there is nothing that justifies where their prices have gone.  Up until 10 years ago you could regularly buy a new Calatrava with at least a 30% discount and have a great watch for under $10K.  I just don't see any true value in their product at the $20-25K range.  However, with emerging markets such as China and India with a new generation of millionaires and billionaires swallowing up luxury goods, Patek's pricicing is unlikely to change until those markets are saturated also.  

 

As for Platinum vs. Gold, check the Vickers and Mohs Hardness ratings and you will see gold is much softer than Platinum.  I think when you talk about gold alloys, you then have to be more specific regarding whether you are talking about 18K, 14K or 10K.  18K gold is only 75% gold, 14K is only 58.5% gold, and 10K gold... well that starts to seem like more scrap metal than gold, and will be relatively hard depending on what its alloyed with.   Platinum is denser, more brittle, and more durable.  I've seen guys with wedding bands that are 40+ years which have litterally worn through in some places.   Platinum, I've seen bands that are 70 years old that are scratched up, but not worn through.  Interestingly, when you scratch or dent platinum, it can be polished and you lose little or no metal, some molecules simply shifts their positions when scratch or polished, when you polish gold its so soft you actually lose some metal.  

post #20212 of 34987
Quote:
Originally Posted by apropos View Post


I think Dino has touched on this topic before I did, and he really put into words what I had felt for a while but never could quite crystallise into a coherent opinion. Dealers around Asia Pacific always tell me there is a waiting list for the Nautilus - at Bangkok it was apparently 3.5-4 years. Four years. Think about it.

The price on the 2nd hand market accurately reflects this really high demand. But that demand is in a sense "artificial" - in essence they're doing a Hermes or de Beers: strangling supply on purpose to jack the price up and create a sense of exclusivity. I don't agree with it 100%, but on the other hand I can see why the brands do it. Why wouldn't they? You can make a heck of a lot more off a steel watch that objectively doesn't cost much to make, and increase brand prestige at the same time. And unlike de Beers, it's not as if people are digging Nautili (Nautiluses?) out of the ground.

IMO a great part of the appeal of the Nautilus is that you want a sporty watch (common) that no one else has (rare). Same for the RO. Yes, you can appreciate the other tangible things about it (finish, design, movement, etc) but if for some reason tomorrow the MSRP on the Nautilus became $2k and Joe Sixpack on Main Street had one too demand would crash through the floor.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

To cast a cynical eye on it, it's really all about wankery. I just don't feel 100% comfortable that PP is actively encouraging the wanky bit of the equation, but c'est la vie - humans have been wankers for millenia, so I guess the die was cast a long time ago...

...after all, didn't I recently buy a watch with a red dial?

I'll admit it, it does make me feel like a special flower. A rather wanky special flower. And gosh darn it, this wankery business does feel good. I can see why everyone does it. shog[1].gifbiggrin.gif

 

The funny thing about the Nautilus was that 8-10 years ago no one cared about them.  In fact plenty of Patek purists/collectors thought the Nautilus was beneath them...as Patek had almost always worked in precious metals and that they were busy chasing after AP clients making a RO/Genta derivative.  I even heard one Patek collector say he thought it was ugly and the case shape reminded him of an old TV from the 1950s.  It was a line of watches that was regularly discounted 30-35%. 

 

Fast foward a few years and then their are rumors Patek won't be making any more steel watches.  This is around the time the Nautlilus 3712/A1 was released (I believe its 1mm smaller than the current 5712) and collectors start snapping them up.  The 3712 was only made for a year or two and prices on them climb quickly from their original MSRP of $19,900.  Then there is nothing for about a year and then 5712/A1 arrives, and the 5711/A1, and the rumors that they won't make any more SS watches is squashed.  In the beginning 2ndary prices on the 5712/A1 were higher than new prices, but as supply caught up with demand, and Patek raised their prices to reduce flipping...well they are not as rare or tough to find.  No doubt in some markets they are tougher to locate, it depends on how many units are allocated to certain countries or even regions of a country (and at times companies be it Patek, Rolex or others play the DeBeers game with supply and demand). 

 

However, on a trip to Las Vegas last October, between the 2 or 3 ADs there, every Nautilus model was available in steel.  That doesn't detract from their beauty, or relative rarity compared to say Rolex, Breitling, Omega or IWC, however there rarity is not quite what many AD's in smaller areas with smaller allocations make them out to be.  Also, I don't see the flipping I used to see for big profits that I used to see on 5712/A1s when they were relatively new and suppy was far short of the demand.  I've even been into an AD or two on occasion and been offered a small discount.

 

I really like the Nautilus line and would be tempted to get one someday, but do I think its another model where price has gotten out of hand. 

post #20213 of 34987
my new stowa


post #20214 of 34987
Not that it matters to me but I am curious about the reason for this.

"Notice Regarding Importation into the United States of Corum, Franck Muller, Piaget and Rolex watches. We cannot arrange for the delivery of Corum, Franck Muller, Piaget, Tudor and Rolex watches into The United States. The buyer or designated agent may collect the property in the country of sale."
post #20215 of 34987
Quote:
Originally Posted by culverwood View Post

Not that it matters to me but I am curious about the reason for this.

"Notice Regarding Importation into the United States of Corum, Franck Muller, Piaget and Rolex watches. We cannot arrange for the delivery of Corum, Franck Muller, Piaget, Tudor and Rolex watches into The United States. The buyer or designated agent may collect the property in the country of sale."

Read this
http://www.crownandcaliber.com/watches/rolex/how-do-you-import-a-rolex-watch-into-the-united-states/
post #20216 of 34987
............
Edited by jhcam8 - 4/25/13 at 9:05am
post #20217 of 34987
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newcomer View Post

For that money, I am pretty sure I will take a damn Paul Newman Daytona. Or a number of other more awesome watches. Hmmm, maybe a Vingt-8 for that money. Shit, the platinum Daytona is not even aesthetically pleasing.
And let us not kid, ~$20k for a SS YMII? That is also ABSURD. I will take JLC's new perpetual calendar, which is actually LESS.
And then we have the GMT running in at $9,500. That is a lot of money. Jeez. I think I will probably be going vintage.
Is it wrong that this pricing actually angers me? Do not get me wrong, I can't fault Rolex, they are just trying to make it a profit. But this is maddening.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino944 View Post

Overall, I really like its appearance a lot, although I wonder if the contrast of the blue 24 hour hand is enough against the black dial.  Definitely something I look forward to seeing in person.
The new Daytona is kind of a waste...with the right dial, bezel, and in a more affordable case metal it could have been a cool watch.  I like Platinum,  but this looks like its geared more for the likes of Paris Hilton than Hurley Haywood.    
As for the YM2, its one of the ugliest and least useful watches Rolex has ever released.   I even find the Yachtmaster name pretentious....the only thing that would have been worse is if they had named it the OperaMaster.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino944 View Post

I think people have to remember the price of the Platinum Daytona relative to a Platinum Datograph or Patek is due to the sheer volume of platinum you get with a Daytona and the difficulty in working with it.  With the Lange and Patek there is less Platinum, but far more hand workmanship.  I've heard amounts varying from 5-10 tons of ore are required to produce 1 ounce of pure Platinum.  In addition,  Also as for comparing it to gold, gold is relatively soft and very easy to work with compared to platinum...so what it takes to make a gold case or bracelet is far less labor intensive than to make them from platinum.
Permit me to play the devil's advocate here for a moment regarding the PtD. I kinda like it. It's very encouraging that the watch is staying at around 39 mm (the case appears to be very slightly wider than the steel and YG models), and I think it's going to be fairly understated, at least as far as top-of-the-range Rolex goes. €61550 is borderline taking-the-piss, but it's about what I expected considering that a platinum Day-Date costs about double what an 18K one does. C'est la vie.

Although the colour scheme is a bit pastel-ey and the term "ice blue" is ...well.. lame, I'd sure wear it. In fact, I'd be fine with it as my only watch. Better than fine, actually; I'd be freaking ecstatic, as I could then retire from ever giving a crap again about watches. Considering that Rolex has only produced the Day-Date in platinum before this, there's some significance in making the Daytona first watch in the sports range with this metal, and I'm glad that my prediction came true as it suits the watch. Also, who the hell wouldn't want a Pt Oyster bracelet on the wrist? There are very few watches that are offered with a platinum bracelet, and extremely few that actually look good on one.

I'm not sure whether they're my favourites, but I don't mind the colours, either. The brown looks great to me, and the Day-Date with that dial looks fine in person, though I might just be bypassing my critical reasoning faculties due to the metal. And what a metal! I have little interest in gold watches, but platinum is a different story. My favourite thing about it is that the more you wear it, the better it looks. It doesn't get rounded-off like gold or somewhat mangy like steel can sometimes get — it develops a subtle lustre over time that's unique to the metal. It's very hard yet incredibly ductile, it doesn't lose any weight from wearing... the stuff absolutely kicks ass.

Admittedly, for that cost, you have some tremendous options — the vast majority of which offer something other than a mass-produced chronograph movement, as stellar as the 4130 is. However, I feel limited when I'm wearing something with a less-robust movement. While I'm not particularly rough on watches, and my more complicated stuff has been fine so far even in the Norwegian drinking environment, simpler is often better. In (very roughly) that cost ballpark, I'd be more than a bit uncomfortable about wearing something as intricate as a Datograph, which is undeniably a great watch with a phenomenally beautiful movement inside. But the approval of self-appointed WIS-types ain't everything; I have never called myself one and I'd be tempted to slap someone who did. Seriously, though, there's undeniably some appeal to a watch you can wear every single day of your life, under any reasonable circumstances, without having to stress about it.

Plus the thing is waterproof. You could easily use it just as you would a steel watch. I can't think of any other in that rarefied price category that I'd be comfortable with having on my wrist 24/7. While I'm not a fan of watches that are heavy simply due to bulk, the slim Daytona in platinum is going to be formidable. The DD II is about 280 g, and I'd expect a PtD to be at least that. The thing is going to be an absolute beast, and I am most definitely looking forward to trying one on! It would be more than a bit foolish of me to buy it at this stage in my life, but I'm sure that there are plenty that will, and not all of them will be doing it out of ignorance of the other options.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino944 View Post

rotflmao.gif   the best laugh I've had all week! 
Thanks — I aim to please!
post #20218 of 34987
^^you raise some damn good points here.
post #20219 of 34987
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino944 View Post

As for Platinum vs. Gold, check the Vickers and Mohs Hardness ratings and you will see gold is much softer than Platinum.  I think when you talk about gold alloys, you then have to be more specific regarding whether you are talking about 18K, 14K or 10K.  18K gold is only 75% gold, 14K is only 58.5% gold, and 10K gold... well that starts to seem like more scrap metal than gold, and will be relatively hard depending on what its alloyed with.   Platinum is denser, more brittle, and more durable.  I've seen guys with wedding bands that are 40+ years which have litterally worn through in some places.   Platinum, I've seen bands that are 70 years old that are scratched up, but not worn through.  Interestingly, when you scratch or dent platinum, it can be polished and you lose little or no metal, some molecules simply shifts their positions when scratch or polished, when you polish gold its so soft you actually lose some metal.  
I wish I'd seen this before I submitted my earlier post. Spot-on, although my understanding of platinum's properties is that it's not at all brittle. Its combination of hardness and ductility is phenomenal, and makes the metal uniquely desirable.
post #20220 of 34987
[quote name="kungapa" url="/t/36253/the-watch-appreciation-thread/20160#ptage
I was posting from the - rather simplified - point of view of some potential customers for these Rolexes. Rolex has the unique situation of almost being a proprietary eponym synonymous with high-end, expensive luxury watch. For people with no interest in watches and more sense than money, the type of signal owning a Rolex sends is highly desirable. It can be understood by a lot of people in the general public, whereas a Lange or even a Patek doesn't communicate the same thing.[/quote]

SEE BELOW - I did this on my phone, which often confuses me.
Edited by jhcam8 - 4/25/13 at 9:13am
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