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The Watch Appreciation Thread - Page 1207

post #18091 of 37427
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino944 View Post

A quick check on eBay and I found 2 examples of the AP Dual Time dress watch from the 90s.  One for $9,000 OBO, the other for $9,700 OBO. 
So with some negotiating I would think in the $8-9K range is not unreasonable for a top quality watch.
For the 39 mm with the newer movement? If so, that's not bad at all, but I've never seen them for that price.

The Dual Time is one of the best steel watches I've seen in person; there was one at a work get-together recently and I had a good chat with its owner. It's just a gorgeous watch with a lovely JLC movement, and I have a weakness for GMT-type complications. Unfortunately, that nice brushed finish would likely start looking a bit mangled in short order on my wrist; it's not a motorcycling watch.

post #18092 of 37427
^^ i liek ^^
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino944 View Post

 I think the pricing on that 90s AP would be low because it wasn't a hugely popular model (the RO version was more in demand) and the crown and lugs being on the small side date the watch a bit.  Other than that, if one likes the design its probably a great value as the modern versions of that are close to $30K.

yes, this is what i was trying to say. thanks dino, lol.
post #18093 of 37427
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino944 View Post

IIRC, the true drop is 17%.  Some people have then tried figuring if the got a discount based on the new price, how much they might have saved...but most got large discount on the gold pieces.  Its my understanding, the cost on APs to dealers have gone up by 10% so with a drop in MSRP, it will cut the deep discounting on gold models.  Also, AP is doing what Cartier and Rolex did in the last few years and is closing many smaller/deep discouting ADs world wide.  

As for brand perception, it probably won't have much affect.  They have tremendous brand loyalty among customers(maybe more so than any other brand other than Rolex, with many owners owning several APs). Not sure if anyone here on SF was following AP about 4-5 years ago, but anyone that did may remember they had price reduction on steel watches in 2009.  For example all the sudden the RO chronograph dropped from about $19,400 to $16,000+/-.  Within 2 years prices on all steel APs were nearly at the pre-price drop level and by last year all prices had greatly exceeded it, and the RO chronographs were around $23,000.  Most people don't even remember the price drop.  If someone had to sell a watch immediately after the price drop it sucked for them, but if they held on to the watch for a few years it became irrelevant as prices rebounded. 

 Quick research I saw said its only on gold models, and not on any limited editions.  Rumors began in January, but were confirmed by the last week of January.

Looks like AP is gearing up for a Richemont style strategy of severing ties with ADs and shifting focus to boutique sales. I read an interview with their current CEO, Bennahmias, where he seemed intensely fixated on brand management - enhancement from celebrity endorsements and customer service, and damage from grey market and AD discounting. I'm interested to see if his strategy will work. I understand he has basically no knowledge about watches, and came to AP from a background of fashion marketing.
post #18094 of 37427
Quote:
Originally Posted by johanm View Post

Looks like AP is gearing up for a Richemont style strategy [...]I understand he has basically no knowledge about watches, and came to AP from a background of fashion marketing.
Do you have a link to the interview? That's really unfortunate if someone who's not a watch person is at the helm of AP. Richemont's celebrities,-fashion-and-branding streak has managed to destroy IWC in my eyes; it would be a shame for another old house to suffer the same fate — though the endless ROO clown editions are a sign that it's already been happening.
post #18095 of 37427
Quote:
Originally Posted by in stitches View Post

^^ i liek ^^
yes, this is what i was trying to say. thanks dino, lol.

 Just an example of great minds thinking alike fistbump.gif

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belligero View Post


For the 39 mm with the newer movement? If so, that's not bad at all, but I've never seen them for that price.

The Dual Time is one of the best steel watches I've seen in person; there was one at a work get-together recently and I had a good chat with its owner. It's just a gorgeous watch with a lovely JLC movement, and I have a weakness for GMT-type complications. Unfortunately, that nice brushed finish would likely start looking a bit mangled in short order on my wrist; it's not a motorcycling watch.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

 

Not sure if your post was of the belief that I was speaking of the RO Dual Time for 8-9K?  I was not, but in any event you won't find a 39mm RO Dual Time for that price.  I was speaking of the 90s version of the dual time gold dress watches, which the OP inquired about a few posts earlier.  The old watch is top quality, its simply a matter of whether the design appeals to someone.  The current Jules Audemars Dual Times would sell for a heck of a lot more than 8-9K.

 

The new Dual Time RO is a beatiful and very functional watch.  It was a strong contender when I was shopping for a RO.  The RO Dual Time originally came out I believe in the early 90s, but I think the 39mm version is much nicer than the original!  Its a great travel watch for a CEO that travels, and will be wearing everything from suits to casual wear.  I don't really think of it as a motorcycling watch...I cringe at the thought of what it might look like if it were ever in some of the accidents my clients have been in with their motorcycles!

post #18096 of 37427
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino944 View Post

Not sure if your post was of the belief that I was speaking of the RO Dual Time for 8-9K?  [...]
Oops, all I saw was Dual Time and I thought RO. But since we're on the subject, I'll just mention that the 36 mm Royal Oak Dual Time is no slouch in the looks department, either, and can be had for much less than the newer version.

post #18097 of 37427
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belligero View Post


Do you have a link to the interview? That's really unfortunate if someone who's not a watch person is at the helm of AP. Richemont's celebrities,-fashion-and-branding streak has managed to destroy IWC in my eyes; it would be a shame for another old house to suffer the same fate — though the endless ROO clown editions are a sign that it's already been happening.

He's been with AP for more than 15 years so I'm not sure I'd say he is NOT a watch person at this point.  To be honest, some companies have done quite well have being helmed by people from the outside.  I don't think Nicolas Hayek's formal background was not in the watch industry.  Some of his skills may have been transferable, but again not originally a watch guy.  As for the Limited Editions...don't get me started I can' stand most RO Offshores Ltd eds, IWC Ltd eds, Omega Ltd eds,...but as long as their are people who will pay a premium to get a watch with slightly different stitching on a strap, or a different colored second hand, the watch companies will continue to make them. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by johanm View Post


Looks like AP is gearing up for a Richemont style strategy of severing ties with ADs and shifting focus to boutique sales. I read an interview with their current CEO, Bennahmias, where he seemed intensely fixated on brand management - enhancement from celebrity endorsements and customer service, and damage from grey market and AD discounting. I'm interested to see if his strategy will work. I understand he has basically no knowledge about watches, and came to AP from a background of fashion marketing.

 Many companies such as Rolex or those under Richemont have cancelled contracts with a number of ADs world wide...both in an effort to get rid of those offering deep discounts, and to eliminate some of the middlemen and open boutiques in major cities.  All companies have some level of brand management, if they have a brand image worth protecting or marketing.  I do not like the celebrity endorsements as I think it cheapens brands and is never an inflence on my decision of what to purchase.  However, many companies are affiliated with some celebrities with little harm to the brand.   

 

As for how he came to AP, my understanding was that Georges Meylan, former CEO of AP, was vacationing and was familiar with Bennahmias's wife who worked for Breitling. He bumped into the Bennahmiases on that vacation.  Bennahmias was unemployed at the time and after talking with him, Meylan offered him a job at AP.  The rest is history, as for a background in fashion marketing...that might just be prior on the job training.  IIRC, he didn't have a college degree...when I read that back in the 1990s when he first came to AP North America...I thought wow thats lucky to get a job like that!  Still, if I were a betting man, I'd put my money on Bennahmias being very successful with the brand.  He is largely responsible for helping to increase brand awareness and to help turn their sales from roughly a few million dollars per year to several hundred million dollars per year. 

post #18098 of 37427
Quote:
Originally Posted by in stitches View Post

saw this on tumblr. drool.gif





Supposedly this was Ian Fleming's watch.

The Explorer is the 1016. I also really like the 1018 Rolex Oyster Perpetual non-date. Cool as motherf#cker.

post #18099 of 37427
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

 

 

 

 

Yea, I figured you presumed we were talking about ROs.  True, the 36mm is a handsome watch.  However, I find the 39mm more appealing in terms of both dial and size. 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Belligero View Post


Oops, all I saw was Dual Time and I thought RO. But since we're on the subject, I'll just mention that the 36 mm Royal Oak Dual Time is no slouch in the looks department, either, and can be had for much less than the newer version.

post #18100 of 37427
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino944 View Post

He's been with AP for more than 15 years so I'm not sure I'd say he is NOT a watch person at this point.  To be honest, some companies have done quite well have being helmed by people from the outside.  I don't think Nicolas Hayek's formal background was not in the watch industry.  Some of his skills may have been transferable, but again not originally a watch guy.  As for the Limited Editions...don't get me started I can' stand most RO Offshores Ltd eds, IWC Ltd eds, Omega Ltd eds,...but as long as their are people who will pay a premium to get a watch with slightly different stitching on a strap, or a different colored second hand, the watch companies will continue to make them. 
 Many companies such as Rolex or those under Richemont have cancelled contracts with a number of ADs world wide...both in an effort to get rid of those offering deep discounts, and to eliminate some of the middlemen and open boutiques in major cities.  All companies have some level of brand management, if they have a brand image worth protecting or marketing.  I do not like the celebrity endorsements as I think it cheapens brands and is never an inflence on my decision of what to purchase.  However, many companies are affiliated with some celebrities with little harm to the brand.   

As for how he came to AP, my understanding was that Georges Meylan, former CEO of AP, was vacationing and was familiar with Bennahmias's wife who worked for Breitling. He bumped into the Bennahmiases on that vacation.  Bennahmias was unemployed at the time and after talking with him, Meylan offered him a job at AP.  The rest is history, as for a background in fashion marketing...that might just be prior on the job training.  IIRC, he didn't have a college degree...when I read that back in the 1990s when he first came to AP North America...I thought wow thats lucky to get a job like that!  Still, if I were a betting man, I'd put my money on Bennahmias being very successful with the brand.  He is largely responsible for helping to increase brand awareness and to help turn their sales from roughly a few million dollars per year to several hundred million dollars per year. 

Are you sure you're not confusing Bennahmias for another AP executive, possibly the outgoing one who Bennahamias only recently replaced on an interim basis? In the recent speech linked below he talks about his fiancee, as well as some similar topics to what I mentioned in my earlier post. In the other interview, which I'll continue to try to find, I think he was emphasizing his experience with fashion (I think he worked for Jean Paul Gaultier and some other French house) and how it gives him a different perspective on watch marketing as compared to other watch industry executives.

post #18101 of 37427
Quote:
Originally Posted by johanm View Post


Are you sure you're not confusing Bennahmias for another AP executive, possibly the outgoing one who Bennahamias only recently replaced on an interim basis? In the recent speech linked below he talks about his fiancee, as well as some similar topics to what I mentioned in my earlier post. In the other interview, which I'll continue to try to find, I think he was emphasizing his experience with fashion (I think he worked for Jean Paul Gaultier and some other French house) and how it gives him a different perspective on watch marketing as compared to other watch industry executives.

 

No, I haven't confused Francois Bennahmias with Merk (the previous CEO) or someone else at AP.  Bennahmias began working for AP back in 1996.  He is 48 years old now.  The fact that he is speaking of getting married doesn't mean its will be his first wife.  I have seen something about him having worked in with fashion (not a surprise as he is French), but I don't know what his involvement was.  I remember reading the article in print regarding how George Henri Meylan then CEO of AP offered him a job, trust me I was in grad school and sure wished I had gotten that offer with no real training or higher learning degrees (but he may have since gotten some degrees to move up in the company).  In any event, my point was you made it sound as though he is a newbie and clueless about the industry, as you stated, "I understand he has basically no knowledge about watches."  However, he has been with AP since at least 1996, working in France, Singapore, and introducing the brand to Australia, and then having been CEO of AP North America since 1999...so hopefully since 1996 and becoming their CEO he's well beyond newbie status and knows about watches and the industry.  So far everything he has done at AP has increased brand awareness, sales, and profit so I think their is a strong likelihood he is leading AP in the right direction ...even if I find brand ambassadors detract from a brands (not just AP but from all of them). 

post #18102 of 37427
Recent Flame. Ancon~ Sea Shadow in ALBronze

*
post #18103 of 37427
Quote:
Originally Posted by johanm View Post


Are you sure you're not confusing Bennahmias for another AP executive, possibly the outgoing one who Bennahamias only recently replaced on an interim basis? In the recent speech linked below he talks about his fiancee, as well as some similar topics to what I mentioned in my earlier post. In the other interview, which I'll continue to try to find, I think he was emphasizing his experience with fashion (I think he worked for Jean Paul Gaultier and some other French house) and how it gives him a different perspective on watch marketing as compared to other watch industry executives.

The French and Italians are good in Fashion clothing, but watchmaking/cars or anything else watch related I am not 2sure about thatconfused.gif

post #18104 of 37427
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino944 View Post

No, I haven't confused Francois Bennahmias with Merk (the previous CEO) or someone else at AP.  Bennahmias began working for AP back in 1996.  He is 48 years old now.  The fact that he is speaking of getting married doesn't mean its will be his first wife.  I have seen something about him having worked in with fashion (not a surprise as he is French), but I don't know what his involvement was.  I remember reading the article in print regarding how George Henri Meylan then CEO of AP offered him a job, trust me I was in grad school and sure wished I had gotten that offer with no real training or higher learning degrees (but he may have since gotten some degrees to move up in the company).  In any event, my point was you made it sound as though he is a newbie and clueless about the industry, as you stated, "I understand he has basically no knowledge about watches."  However, he has been with AP since at least 1996, working in France, Singapore, and introducing the brand to Australia, and then having been CEO of AP North America since 1999...so hopefully since 1996 and becoming their CEO he's well beyond newbie status and knows about watches and the industry.  So far everything he has done at AP has increased brand awareness, sales, and profit so I think their is a strong likelihood he is leading AP in the right direction ...even if I find brand ambassadors detract from a brands (not just AP but from all of them). 

Ah, understood. I didn't mean to imply that he's a newbie or clueless about the industry, just that he seems to be more of an expert on sales/marketing rather than product development. Nothing wrong with that - companies undergoing leadership transition will typically pick among candidates with a wide range of backgrounds (sales/marketing, supply chain, R&D, finance, etc) and choose the one whose skills/knowledge match up with the board's vision for the company's future. Anyway, he seems to be a very creative and energetic guy and I expect that he will only continue to invigorate the brand in new and existing markets.
post #18105 of 37427
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino944 View Post

H Limited Editions...don't get me started

 

 

 

Hahaha.  Honestly, I hate them all, from James Bond to Valentino Rossi.  Never understood why you'd want someone else's name on your watch.

 

By the way, that's an interesting thing about authorised dealers, Dino.  You've mentioned this issue a few times, with some makers moving more to their own boutiques.  Really, I think it's the only way their brands can survive.  I saw the CEO of a big UK clothing retailer on TV last night, talking about how "most companies now with they had fewer stores" because more and more retail is now done online.

 

This is slightly different for watch makers, I think, in that they need to have a physical retail presence because the "feel" of the product is such a part of the buying experience.  And especially as you go further upmarket, not many people spend $100k or even $5k on something they've never physically seen.  And there's the problem with authorised dealers: they have seven or eight brands, the customer comes in, finds the one he likes, and if that happens to be your brand, great.  But then the customer asks advice in this thread, goes to watch forums, ebay, even other dealers, and searches for the best price.  So the only way the AD can compete is brutal discounting.

 

If I ran AP or any other good watch company, I'd be doing the same.  I'd do everything I could to get my product off eBay, off online discounting sites, and back under my control.  Of course you then need to maintain awareness of your product with advertising, endorsements and clever marketing - I'd pay you to keep posting pics of your RO on StyleForum, for instance.  Then with exclusive boutiques (and even an accompanying online shop to make ordering easier and internationalise stock), the margins can be maintained, the customer knows he's buying from the most trustworthy source, and the brand avoids any dilution.  If anything, it becomes more exclusive and appealing.

 

Not being able to get big discounts is a bummer.  But if it were my company, I'm damn sure that's the way I'd go too.  Traditional retailers of other people's products are going to have a hard life, and devalue some of those products in the process.  Retailing your own stuff is the future.  

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