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The Watch Appreciation Thread - Page 1177

post #17641 of 35576
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnguy001 View Post

Extremely true. Rolex and PAMs have much higher resale and trade in values. I found this out firsthand when I was inquiring about possible trade ins. IWC and even JLC as a whole don't hold up their value nearly as well ( as I would've liked)

It made me really appreciate Rolex a little more to be honest.

A buddy of mine discovered the same thing with both a IWC and a stunning 8 day Master Reserve limited edition.  The store owner came out and said, Sorry, I'm not even interested in seeing IWCs or JLCs...our customers really only want Patek, AL&S, AP, Rolex, and Cartier.  And my friend's limited edition JLC is a real beauty! 

 

Not sure if they would consider a PAM, but as you already know PAMs have traditionally had very strong resale value.

post #17642 of 35576

Its not expensive but it was a gift from my wife when I got my new job. It is super slim and shirt cuffs slides easily over it.

 

Citizen Men's BM7190-05A Eco-Drive Stainless Steel Date Watch

 

 

1000

post #17643 of 35576

Will update with pictures later, but I'm a big Movado fan. Love the sleek look. I have a more casual one, I'm not sure of the model name, and an Esperanza that belonged to my father (http://www.princetonwatches.com/images/watches/0600451.jpg).

 

I also have a black D&G I found cheap, an old Breil watch I got in Italy quite a while ago but never liked to wear much because of the bulk, an Akkribos XXIV, which I like for the novelty of the empty, see-through face, and an Android skeleton which. I like Android watches quite a lot as well (and am constantly receiving compliments on it), though they're incredibly hard to find.

post #17644 of 35576
Nice looking watch. Great gift
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkbucksot View Post

Its not expensive but it was a gift from my wife when I got my new job. It is super slim and shirt cuffs slides easily over it.

Citizen Men's BM7190-05A Eco-Drive Stainless Steel Date Watch



1000
post #17645 of 35576

good day

post #17646 of 35576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cuttingboard View Post

I don't have the words to describe that thread...but the work "tool" comes to mind.

I bet you're Mr. Cool LOL

post #17647 of 35576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino944 View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Yes, there are IWCs that sell at prices beyond their original discounted prices.  However, there are plenty that don't...I've seen GSTs, Ingenieurs, and F.A Jones, with ASKING prices at either their original discounted prices...or in the case of the F.A. Jones that my AD wanted to sell me at MSRP...I could now buy it for 30% less than he wanted to sell it to me for...Nice watch, but I'm glad I didn't buy it.  Also, if going by internet pricing, remember those are asking prices and not actual SALE prices.  Also the appreciation levels I mentioned are based on actual sales, not asking prices.  In addition, I don't want to be bothered with tire kickers, people getting buyers remorse and wanting to return a watch after I sell it, so the appreciation of 20-25% even on Ex1s and Ex2s is conservative as the stores I've sold to still make a profit over my selling price. 

 

A good ss DJ after 7-10 years if well taken care of, still has very strong resale.  IWC is a great watch, and granted I don't live in NYC, but I can tell you some used watch shops aroud me won't even consider buying anything other than Patek, Rolex, AL&S, AP, Cartier.  They won't purchase IWC, GP, JLC, and tons of other great brands.  Its not the end all be all, but it says something of the secondary market for those brands.

 

You mention Rolex doing well in the secondary market because people buy it when they can't afford a new one...but thats true of all brands in the secondary market.  Unless one is dedicated to vintage models, or you are searching for a specific model that went out of production, most people want to own a new watch rather than the same model thats 2-4 years old with someone else's name on the paperwork.

 

As for the interest in AP, IWC, Panerai etc. there is far more advertising today on the part of AP, Omega, Panerai, Tag, and IWC.  I don't recall seeing any printed ads for IWC or Panerai prior to the mid 1990s.  AP did a little advertising in the 1980s...and in the 1980s when Tag bought Heuer they were originally selling junky quartz watches in Sharper Image catalogs and airplane "Skymall" types of catalogs.  Tag has certainly put in a lot of effort to change that image, and IWC has moved toward making some of their own movements.

 



I did find your final paragraph interesting, and there are a few points I agree with, some I don't.   It seemed Rolex didn't do very much with their products for several years in the 90s into early 2000s.  Some Rolex models don't excite me, such as the basic Datejust, nice watch but nothing unusual.  But its funny that Rolex keeps models largely the same over the years with just slight evolutionary changes, and they are called boring or dowdy here on SF.  Patek does virtually nothing with a Calatrava other than beef up case size and price...and well thats a classic no one can criticize because its Patek.  I really adore complicated Pateks, they are simply stunning,...but the Calatrava is just grossly overpriced.  Also Panerai...it became better known after Hollywood took a liking to them in the 90's.  They are interesting designs, but in reality they offer 2 models with some variations.   People applaud that that are finally making some of their own movments but no one criticizes them for keeping the same look for decades?  Actually, people often love watches that change very little over time...the Speedy Pro, Calatrava, Cartier Tank, and many of TAGs nicest watches seem to be reissues of Heuers from the pre-TAG days.  I just think its interesting that Rolex takes a beating for small evolutionary changes, and other brands get a pass.

I do think that with Rolex's price increases have pushed some potential buyers toward Omega, Breitling, and Tag all of which have some products starting at a lower price point.  A friend that worked in the industry told me that the number of people that can afford good watches and spend for them, gets smaller at certain levels, its like there is a pyramid.  There is a large base at with people willing to spend up to 5K, tapering as you get to 10K then tapering again substantially at 20K and the number spending 20K + is quite small.  As Rolex moved above the $5K range many would be buyers that don't want a pre-owned watch move toward less expensive alternative brands.  As for Rolex being less glamourous...I've never considered Rolex, Panerai, IWC as glamorous watches.  I just think of them as sports watches and any of them could be alternatives for the others depending on needs and personal taste.  As for AP it starts in such a different price range that they really are not competitors or alternatives.


Thanks for the detailed response Dino.

On the topic of incremental design changes, Rolex and Panerai should be applauded, and brands like IWC should be chastised for their lack of discipline and year-after-year releasing several original designs that flop out of the gates. Anyway, this is not IMO the basis any dowdy/stodgy characterization of Rolex, but rather their association with unfashionable suburbia - the lifestyle of McMansions, large SUVs, shopping malls, office parks, etc. (cf. the rolexforums "Rolex and Attire" thread referenced above). Panerai, AP, and increasingly IWC have done a great job of creating associations with celebrities, athletes, and other rich/cool/young people. As they continue with the current pace/mode of advertising I think their aspirational factor and corresponding secondary market premium will only increase.

On pricing, I do wonder whether Rolex has fully thought through the psychology of consumers at the different price points. I'm not sure that the market is very large for $10k+ SS sport models, which is where the current trajectory of price increases is taking them. In my experience, past that point the average consumer of luxury watches is looking for either (i) genuine brand prestige (Patek, etc) or (ii) some illusion of brand exclusivity. As a side note, I saw you mentioned JLC - I put them, and to a lesser extent GO, in the "genuine prestige" rather than "illusory exclusivity" category on account of their commitment to technical innovation and performance and fair pricing, which I predict will pay dividends for their brand equity if they can improve their designs (I find their Master range dull/sterile, their sport range overdesigned, and Reversos awkward - none of which are helpful from a resale perspective).
post #17648 of 35576
Quote:
Originally Posted by apropos View Post

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Great story.

Watch odyssey update - today I went to one of eight AL&S boutiques in the world. Yay for me! smile.gif

The boutique is surprisingly small, a real hole in the wall, but I guess that's to be expected in space-scarce Singapore. It has not officially launched yet, it's sort of in the soft launch phase.

Service in the boutique was excellent, with refreshments appearing out of nowhere without any prompting. I was also given a catalogue when I left, once again without any prompting. It is a substantial piece of work, and makes other catalogues look... cheap. After the AL&S boutique I dropped into The Hour Glass to look at some Breguets and you should have seen the look on the HG salespeople when they spotted the AL&S carrier bag... devil.gif

Being possessed of a rather cruel streak, I put the salesman through his paces with a stream of questions about the various Lange models (most of which I knew the answers to already... heh) - he performed remarkably well, with the only hiccup being his explanation of why there was a $2,500 price difference between the WG and PG Lange 1s ("more gold" in the WG version...???!!). A welcome change from the usual clueless AD staff.

Some observations....

The Lange 1s are beautiful, as always. I have now set my heart on a WG Lange 1; in partficular ref. 101.027x would be a grail for me. I got to spend nearly 20min with a loupe examining the Lange 1 movement, which was absolutely fantastic.

The (new) Grand Langes are in their way possibly even more well proportioned than the Lange 1s - their slimmer profile is noticeable, and very appealing. I had a hard time deciding which I liked better, the Grand or vanilla Lange 1.

The Zeitwerk is interesting, but sadly proportioned like a hockey puck.

The prices were a little... surprising - the Lange 1 is SGD$45,000, which is approx USD$36,300. The discount was bad, nay, pathetic for Singapore - just 5%.

AL&S have withdrawn their brand from The Hour Glass, so Sincere Watches are the only other outfit in town stocking AL&S. The salesman helpfully informed me that the discount was also "locked" at 5% at that other AD.
I could have sworn Lange 1s were just $31,000 last year?? It's pretty surprising that you can get Langes cheaper in the USA than in Singapore, watch mecca that it is.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Anyway, to make up for the lack of boutique/AD photos, a gratuitous watch photo:



Prices in Singapore for luxury goods are generally inflated relative to other industrialised economies, much like HK and mainland China. Prices for designer goods, including luxury watches, in Singapore often exceed those in Europe. For example, the MSRP for Church's shoes or other Northhampton shoemakers is often twice of what the MSRP is in the UK. MSRP for many luxury watches in Singapore are typically 10-20% over the MSRP here in Europe/the UK, to the extent that basically even with the customary discount, you're still paying the MSRP in Europe! I was looking at Reverso 1931s in Singapore last year and they were quoting me on the order of £6000 before discount. The 1931 can be had for £5350 at full MSRP here in the UK, and around £4500 if you pick it up in Heathrow in duty free. They weren't offering me much more than a 15% discount, so really not much of a savings if any. Basically I put it down to a hyper-materialistic, super money conscious, upper middle-class and noveau riche for whom wearing a luxury watch, driving a luxury car, etc. is a must-have status symbol, and for which they are willing to pay silly money.
post #17649 of 35576
Quote:
Originally Posted by apropos View Post

I went to the monobrand AL&S boutique. IIRC I was told that the Ion AL&S boutique has only been open for a bit under 2 months, so by "boutique" in your post I think you might be referring to the "Atelier" AD, which is run by the Hour Glass - i.e. the AD that lost the AL&S account?

If so, I guess we can see why now!! nod[1].gif

If not, maybe I look "prosperous", or maybe they sensed "tourist" and smelt blood, or maybe I need to rethink my bargaining strategy!! shog[1].gif

The boutiques are least likely to discount well, whereas some of the larger multi-brand dealers (e.g. Sincere, HG) are more likely to swing a deal. I think the parent companies keep the boutiques on a tighter leash. I've often found that the stand-alone boutiques often offer less competitive pricing than Sincere, HG, etc. when I've enquired.
post #17650 of 35576
Quote:
Originally Posted by Allez Allez View Post

[/SPOILER]
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

Well, I like mine.

The small portuguese is 36mm, which is not actually small -- it really is just a normal medium size watch. But if you need a big presence on your wrist, then this ain't the watch for you.

Many thanks - inlove.gif. Any accuracy issues?
post #17651 of 35576
No problems with mine. Keeps great time. icon_gu_b_slayer[1].gif

The only problem is finding them. I wouldn't mind a silver face one myself. nod[1].gif
post #17652 of 35576
Quote:
Originally Posted by academe View Post

[/SPOILER]

Prices in Singapore for luxury goods are generally inflated relative to other industrialised economies, much like HK and mainland China. Prices for designer goods, including luxury watches, in Singapore often exceed those in Europe. For example, the MSRP for Church's shoes or other Northhampton shoemakers is often twice of what the MSRP is in the UK. MSRP for many luxury watches in Singapore are typically 10-20% over the MSRP here in Europe/the UK, to the extent that basically even with the customary discount, you're still paying the MSRP in Europe! I was looking at Reverso 1931s in Singapore last year and they were quoting me on the order of £6000 before discount. The 1931 can be had for £5350 at full MSRP here in the UK, and around £4500 if you pick it up in Heathrow in duty free. They weren't offering me much more than a 15% discount, so really not much of a savings if any. Basically I put it down to a hyper-materialistic, super money conscious, upper middle-class and noveau riche for whom wearing a luxury watch, driving a luxury car, etc. is a must-have status symbol, and for which they are willing to pay silly money.

Agreed, one other thing though besides the whole hyper-materialistic money conscious people driving the prices up. When i lived in singapore about 10 years ago, prices for Gucci, Prada etc were about the same as they were in the USA. I.E a pair of Gucci shoes was about 700ish SGD which divided by the exchange rate at the time worked out to about 400ish USD. When i came back the exchange rate is now 1.2 and the prices are still like 700ish for a pair of shoes.
post #17653 of 35576
Quote:
Originally Posted by johanm View Post


Thanks for the detailed response Dino.

On the topic of incremental design changes, Rolex and Panerai should be applauded, and brands like IWC should be chastised for their lack of discipline and year-after-year releasing several original designs that flop out of the gates. Anyway, this is not IMO the basis any dowdy/stodgy characterization of Rolex, but rather their association with unfashionable suburbia - the lifestyle of McMansions, large SUVs, shopping malls, office parks, etc. (cf. the rolexforums "Rolex and Attire" thread referenced above). Panerai, AP, and increasingly IWC have done a great job of creating associations with celebrities, athletes, and other rich/cool/young people. As they continue with the current pace/mode of advertising I think their aspirational factor and corresponding secondary market premium will only increase.

On pricing, I do wonder whether Rolex has fully thought through the psychology of consumers at the different price points. I'm not sure that the market is very large for $10k+ SS sport models, which is where the current trajectory of price increases is taking them. In my experience, past that point the average consumer of luxury watches is looking for either (i) genuine brand prestige (Patek, etc) or (ii) some illusion of brand exclusivity. As a side note, I saw you mentioned JLC - I put them, and to a lesser extent GO, in the "genuine prestige" rather than "illusory exclusivity" category on account of their commitment to technical innovation and performance and fair pricing, which I predict will pay dividends for their brand equity if they can improve their designs (I find their Master range dull/sterile, their sport range overdesigned, and Reversos awkward - none of which are helpful from a resale perspective).

 Hi Johan,

 

You provided some interesting ideas and a very thought provoking topic, so thank you. 

 

I am not sure that the lifestyle of McMansions, Large SUVs, Shopping Malls, and office parks are specific to Rolex owners.  Although, I'm not sure what the association with shopping malls means?  Whether that is the owners work in malls, shop at malls or something else?  In any event a good friend of mine owns a Patek Chronograph 5070, a Patek Travel Time, a Lange 1 Moonphase, a Master Antoine Platinum 8 Day Reserve JLC, and his most recent watch purchase and bang around watch is a Rolex Daytona...guess what?  He drives a large SUV and lives in suburbia...although his home is not a mansion.  I asked why he went with a Daytona and not a Nautilus, RO, Overseas, JLC , or maybe a PAM (since he never owned one).  He said he had owned a Nautilus an RO in the 1980s, he thought the Nautilus was nice but overpriced and too delicate, the RO left a bad taste in his mouth as his old one never kept good time, the Overseas was too flashy and ugly, JLC does a great dress watch but they have no clue what a sport watch should be and their sporty watches reminded him of the clunky watches Zenith made during the last 10 years, and he thought the PAM wasn't versatile, there are average movements in many, and he thought the thickness made it look like something for guys that need people to notice their watches as it doesn't easily fit under a shirt cuff and its so bulky people can't helpt but notice it.  He said in the end a Rolex would give him a durable watch, its not cheap but not insanely expensive for a daily wearer, he liked the design, good resale, and it can be worn easily with casual clothes or a sport coat and dress pants.  I also have another friend with a Patek Calatrava, GP chronograph and he lives in a "McMansion" and works in an industrial park.  Also, as someone that has lived in various cities, they are fun when you are in school and going to clubs, but when you get a bit older you want a home, a yard with some space between you and neighbors, peace and quiet, and you don't want some of the hassels that come with living in the city... "suburbia" even if less fashionable than a big city like NYC, still has its advantages.

 

As for advertising and celebrity assocation and special editions that go with them, I am actully not very impressed with AP or IWC.   I prefered their ads in the 1980s and 1990...AP going for being exclusive had the slogan "AP...Known Only By Those Who Know."  IWC had some clever ads about being watches for men and discussing the attributes of their watches.  IWCs recent ads to be honest, I can't really remember the theme.  Patek has photos of a dad and son (you merely take care of the watch for the next generation), VC had their ads about showing significant milestones in human achievement and then mentioned how old the brand was when the milestones were reached...but I draw a blank on IWC so I'm not sure how great their current ads are.  AP's ads of the last few years have shown a watch with a tribal mask or sculpture...I don't understand the ad or see its significance.  Thankfully, more recently they have been more focused on the 40th anniversary of the RO.  AP is associated with Quincy Jones, JayZ, Lebron James, IWC has been afiliated with Boris Becker, Cousteau, and all great people in their fields, but so what.  I wouldn't buy an AP because Jay Z is their ambassador or an IWC because Borris Becker is their ambassador.  These are people that get all sorts of perks (be it publicity, watches, or money) for their associations with the brand.  Years ago when Carry Grant wore Cartier, or Paul Newman wore a Rolex, it had more meaning because they personally chose these items rather than the brand selecting them and saying please wear this and we will do X,Y and Z for you.   I think kids like things that their heros wear, drive, or have...but I've out grown the age of having althetes or musicians as heros. 

 

Also, I find that AP, IWC, and Omega should stop making a tons of limited editions...it waters down their importance and cheapens the brand image.  AP has had limited editions for Qunicy Jones, JayZ, Lebron, Juan Pablo Montoya (I believe who left them for another company after just a year) and NSYNC.  Not to mention some hideous Montauk Edition Royal Oak, named for a traffic clogged highway in snobby Long Island (my wife is from Long Island and couldn't figure out why they would create a tribute to it).  Then there is IWC with a Cousteau watch, Borris Becker Watch, a Prada Edition, Galapagos Edition, Miami Vice, Jackie Chan, and thats just a small fraction of their limited editions.  Their only really worth while tributes are to Kurt Klaus (developer of the the perpetual calendar mechanism in the original DaVinci and an all around gentleman) and FA Jones, the founder of the company.  And since I'm talking about limited editions...Omega ought to get off the band wagon...there are too many 007 watches, colorful Speedys for Michael Andretti and Michael Schumacher (who is now with AP), and anniversary Moonwatches every 5 years, and the Snoopy Speedy Pros.  Colgate and Crest make good toothpaste, perhap AP would like to make a Colgate Edition Royal Oak, and IWC could do a tribute to celebrate feminine hygene and create the Summers Eve Edition Portugese, and Omega could go on to celebrate 50 years of the Pilsbury Dough Boy with a Speedy Pro Dough Boy Edition.  The race to make more limited editions to work collectors into a frenzy has really become ridiculous!

 

As for Rolex pricing, any company hitting the $10,000 mark tends to lose a lot of potential customers.  However, they are only are headed toward ranges that have already been vacated by the top brands such as PP, AP, and VC.  Many of their steel watches are in the high teens or 20s.  Although, those companies have a much smaller annual production figures so they don't have to find as many customers.  As someone that bought his first good watch a steel GMT master at roughly age 14, for $900 ...the current prices are tough to swallow...then again in 1999 a steel Nautilus had an MSRP of around $9,600 and I could have bought it new from the AD with a discount for around $6,000...now a Nautilus is in the mid 20s so prices have gone up across the board. I guess Rolex better hope that their customers incomes go up as quickly as the price increases...although I'm not sure that is likely in this economy or where they say the current generation might be the first generation to NOT do as well financially as their parents.  

 

As for JLC...I think they make a fantastic watch.  Based on an article I read I see them as in between the top tier brands and the brands just below.  Everything you said about them is true.  However, they have always given their best movements and products to top companies such as PP, AP, and VC and then used slightly lesser movements in their own pieces so as not to compete with the top brands they supply.  I think they are a great brand and they could be a top brand if they chose to be, but traditionally they have chosen to stay just slightly below the top brands.  They represent a great value and have a loyal following, but it will be tough for them to reach beyond the point where they are.  Names like PP, AP, and VC have status and reputations...that JLC doesn't have and may never attain.  Still the advantage is it provides true enthusiasts with a great product at a reasonable price.   


Edited by Dino944 - 2/2/13 at 7:13pm
post #17654 of 35576
^^ no doubt i am biased, but i think that although they will never be considered top tier, some of the top of lines JLC are right up there with the best imo ^^

thanks, that will provide with some late night reading.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bdeuce22 View Post

Life Decisions. Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
FD728889-9043-4407-898C-239D96DCA9E9-8946-000003148EC74EDE.jpg
61C1EB32-391B-4E12-BE7E-1B5BE5D705FF-8946-000003128204F9BB.jpg

i quite like them both, the speedy will be easier to dress up, but its a really a personal decision imo, they are both great.
Quote:
Originally Posted by apropos View Post

...
The Zeitwerk is interesting, but sadly proportioned like a hockey puck.
...

very cool stuff, but the zeitwerk is one of my grails, you make me sad with this report. frown.gif
post #17655 of 35576
Quote:
Originally Posted by johanm View Post

On the topic of incremental design changes, Rolex and Panerai should be applauded, and brands like IWC should be chastised for their lack of discipline and year-after-year releasing several original designs that flop out of the gates. Anyway, this is not IMO the basis any dowdy/stodgy characterization of Rolex, but rather their association with unfashionable suburbia - the lifestyle of McMansions, large SUVs, shopping malls, office parks, etc. (cf. the rolexforums "Rolex and Attire" thread referenced above). Panerai, AP, and increasingly IWC have done a great job of creating associations with celebrities, athletes, and other rich/cool/young people. As they continue with the current pace/mode of advertising I think their aspirational factor and corresponding secondary market premium will only increase.

IMO, IWC has really taken off in Asia/Oceania. It is one of the "default" options considered by newbie or aspiring WISes, the sort that do a little internet searching and reading up before purchasing.

I would attribute the "unfashionable association with suburbia" for Rolex to the very very high visibility of Rolex ad copy, as opposed to some inherent tackiness with the brand.

The "lifestyle of McMansions, large SUVs, shopping malls, office parks, etc" is IMO to a significant degree one of conspicuous consumption and social signalling, and it would logically follow that a popular, high visibility prestige brand like Rolex does well with that segment of the population, not unlike BMW. Sort of like the lazy way out for someone who wants something "better" but doesn't want to do tons of research prior.

Think about the reverse scenario - a, say GO or JLC, would be completely unfit for the purpose of signalling wealth/achievement to fellow middle-upper class peers.

That is of course not to say that all Rolex owners are lazy with research or into conspicuous consumption, but I think it's a fair statement to say that there are Yachtmaster or Leopard print Daytona or jeweled Day-Date owners...

...and then there are Explorer I or no-date Submariner owners.

devil.gif
Edited by apropos - 2/3/13 at 3:30am
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