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The Watch Appreciation Thread - Page 1159

post #17371 of 37162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sander View Post


First, I'm not American; second, irony.

crackup[1].gif

post #17372 of 37162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith T View Post


Good point, ant. The crown is not the easiest to grasp, but I have found it to be better to work with than the TF that it replaced.

I had a devil of a time with that one, but it was overall a smaller watch than the Roadster (34X28 mm or thereabouts) and I'm sure that was the main reason why.

Since you mention it, I also remember having a conversation with a salesman at a Bailey Banks and Biddle several years ago, and he was saying that he thought the crown would dig into the wrist too much to be comfortable, but I haven't had any issues of that sort. In terms of it being oversized, I honestly found it appealing, again perhaps more from an aesthetic point of view rather than pure functionality.

To me, the way the date magnifier is shaped, and how it "rolls towards the crown" (there's got to be a better way to say that) -- I don't know, it kind of lends the piece a certain coherence that I always found appealing.

And as for the bracelet, I actually like quite a bit. It's sort of the reverse of my Daytona, having the smaller center link brushed, and the outsides polished. More importantly, and I suppose just by simple good fortune... it fits me very well...ever so slightly snug; and that's a blessing since there's no fine adjustment to speak of.

Looking back when I bought this watch I didnt think about the price much then! I got it as soon as it was available! Now I dont think it was worth 4G's, but I may be wrong! This reads like a keeper for you, congratsicon_gu_b_slayer[1].gif

post #17373 of 37162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belligero View Post


Thanks!

I don't think they'll have to increase the diameter to get a bigger look if that's where the design is heading; consider the GMT and Submariner changes. While technically staying at 40 mm, they have a substantially larger appearance due to the thicker lugs and ceramic bezels, plus they're noticeably heavier.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

 

The thicker case, maxi dial with larger plots and larger hands also give it that bigger look as well.

post #17374 of 37162
my only issue with some of the larger cased/lugged rolexes, is that i feel the transition from case/lugs to bracelet is a bit harsh, not enough gentle taper. but that is really a nitpick.
post #17375 of 37162
Quote:
Originally Posted by dddrees View Post

The thicker case, maxi dial with larger plots and larger hands also give it that bigger look as well.
Yes, fat hands and markers definitely contribute to the chunkier look.

The Daytona, on the other hand, looks quite a bit more svelte than their other current 40 mm watches, to the point where I could swear the case diameter was a bit smaller.

(photos again for reference)
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)



So — being the consummate nerd that I am — I measured the actual size of the watch.

Surprise! In reality, it's just over 38.5 mm at the bezel, which is the widest part of the case assembly excluding the crown guards and lugs. I'm really pleased about that since the classic look with modern features is what drew me to it in the first place; I think it's cool that it's closer to the original 37-ish mm models, and it makes stuffing a three-day power reserve in there all the more impressive.

Any ideas as to why it's referred to as 40 mm by Rolex and everyone else, though?
post #17376 of 37162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belligero View Post


Yes, fat hands and markers definitely contribute to the chunkier look.

The Daytona, on the other hand, looks quite a bit more svelte than their other current 40 mm watches, to the point where I could swear the case diameter was a bit smaller.

So — being the consummate nerd that I am — I measured the actual size of the watch.

Surprise! In reality, it's just over 38.5 mm at the bezel, which is the widest part of the case assembly excluding the crown guards and lugs. I'm really pleased about that since the classic look with modern features is what drew me to it in the first place; I think it's cool that it's closer to the original 37-ish mm models, and it makes stuffing a three-day power reserve in there all the more impressive.

Any ideas as to why it's referred to as 40 mm by Rolex and everyone else, though?

 

That's excellent verification work.  Glad to know that the Daytona is on the "svelte" side (my own personal preference).  I'm going to go out on a limb and speculate that the quoted measurement may be for its widest point, including the crown/guards.  My Nautilus wears very thin/light but is supposedly 43mm... from ear to ear.  Otherwise it's 38mm diagonal, I believe.

post #17377 of 37162

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belligero View Post


So — being the consummate nerd that I am — I measured the actual size of the watch.

Surprise! In reality, it's just over 38.5 mm at the bezel, which is the widest part of the case assembly excluding the crown guards and lugs. Any ideas as to why it's referred to as 40 mm by Rolex and everyone else, though?

Maybe the bezel isn't actualy the widest part?  I'm not wearing my Daytona at the moment, but I kind of remember the side of the case is very rounded, not flat as on a Sub/GMT, and I think the case side at its widest point actually protrudes slightly beyond the bezel, while on the Sub/GMT the bezel protrudes a bit beyond the case (which has flat sides). 

 

Take a look at the photos below.   The watch appears to rest on the case side (as evidenced by the small shadow between the bezel and the book particularly under the number 80 on the bezel).  If the bezel was the widest part of the watch, wider than the case, I would think it would make actual contact with the book.

 

 

 

Now look at this photo.  Not quite the same angle in the photo, but it appears to be resting on its bezel.

 

One more example of a Daytona where the bezel does not appear to be touching the book thats under it.

 

Not 100% conclusive, but maybe those of you wearing a Daytona today can take a closer look at the sides of the case and or take some photos.

post #17378 of 37162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino944 View Post

Quote:
Maybe the bezel isn't actualy the widest part?  I'm not wearing my Daytona at the moment, but I kind of remember the side of the case is very rounded, not flat as on a Sub/GMT, and I think the case side at its widest point actually protrudes slightly beyond the bezel, while on the Sub/GMT the bezel protrudes a bit beyond the case (which has flat sides). 

Take a look at the photos below.   The watch appears to rest on the case side (as evidenced by the small shadow between the bezel and the book particularly under the number 80 on the bezel).  If the bezel was the widest part of the watch, wider than the case, I would think it would make actual contact with the book. Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)




Now look at this photo.  Not quite the same angle in the photo, but it appears to be resting on its bezel.



One more example of a Daytona where the bezel does not appear to be touching the book thats under it.

Not 100% conclusive, but maybe those of you wearing a Daytona today can take a closer look at the sides of the case and or take some photos.
It's because it's tilted. When held 90° to a straight edge, you can see that the bezel is exactly the same diameter as the case. No camera with me at the moment, unfortunately, but I can get some science-ey photos using a caliper later. I mentioned my nerd-ish tendencies earlier, yes?
post #17379 of 37162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belligero View Post


It's because it's tilted. When held 90° to a straight edge, you can see that the bezel is exactly the same diameter as the case. No camera with me at the moment, unfortunately, but I can get some science-ey photos using a caliper later. I mentioned my nerd-ish tendencies earlier, yes?

I would agree.

 

The bezel on the Sub does in fact stick out further from it's case however.

post #17380 of 37162

I thought about the tilt.  I look forward to your results with calipers.  Also, maybe you could take a photo from the side with bracelet hanging down, and dial facing upward so we can see a profile of the edge of the bezel and where it sits in relation to the case side (without the crown/pushers).

post #17381 of 37162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino944 View Post

 Congrats on your 116520!  Looks great.  It will be interesting to see if Rolex finally caves and gives those who have posted for a few years about wanting a 42mm sized Daytona what they want.  The problem comes in that, like most companies they probably won't want to spend money to revise the movement, and when you stick a chronograph movement in a case thats larger than what the movement was originally intended for, the subdials give that away because they usually look too close to the center of the dial and the outer areas near the subdials look to empty.  With an engraved bezel they can' t really cheat and throw a tychometer or pulsometer around the outer edge of the dial.

What do you think of speculations about a SS ceramic bezel Daytona? I came across some mockups online and was pretty intrigued.

I do think the market is anticipating some "improvements" for the next Daytona as the secondary market for SS 116520s is tanking. Looking at rolexforums and Timezone, you see BNIB new serial, open warranty examples going for about $11-11.5k, LNIB with warranty for $10-10.5k, with new listings every day. Could not have imagined this % drop below retail when I was considering a Daytona in 2008-2009.
post #17382 of 37162
Quote:
Originally Posted by johanm View Post


What do you think of speculations about a SS ceramic bezel Daytona? I came across some mockups online and was pretty intrigued.

I do think the market is anticipating some "improvements" for the next Daytona as the secondary market for SS 116520s is tanking. Looking at rolexforums and Timezone, you see BNIB new serial, open warranty examples going for about $11-11.5k, LNIB with warranty for $10-10.5k, with new listings every day. Could not have imagined this % drop below retail when I was considering a Daytona in 2008-2009.

Hi Johan,

 

I'm not truly in love with the rose gold version with ceramic bezel.  If they built a SS version, I'd hope it would have a bezel more like on the original manual winds, whereby its an insert set into a metal holder.  Whether Rolex will do it, who knows.  There is always lots of speculation and only Rolex knows what its plans are.

 

Rolex only makes a profit from original sales, not from the used market so the secondary market is largely irrelevant for them.  It only factors in that the idea that at one time you could buy a Daytona and flip it the same day caused people to buy it even if they really didn't need or want a chronograph.  However that helped create interest in the watch from would be speculators and often kept these watches out of the hands of people that really wanted to owned one.  As for the Daytona having tanked, its only partially true... in that you can't buy one and flip it for a profit the next day.  It still has excellent resale value.  Do we consider Submariners and GMT Masters failures because for years you could always walk into an ADs and find them in the case and if you bought it, and sold it the next day it would sustain some depreciation? 

 

We have come to expect that Daytonas would always sell for over list price on the secondary market, but that was changed with an economic downturn around 2008, Rolex has steadily increased its price (to cut out middlemen/speculators...if I were making something, I'd want to max out on the profit rather than leave it to middlemen), and the watch has been in production now for 12+ years so there is a good supply in the used market.  We forget that until the early 90s, Daytonas (which had been in production since around 1962/63) were really not popular, were heavily discounted, and anyone that bought them did so to wear them,  not because it was easy flip for a profit. 

 

I know that in some parts of the world Daytonas are still difficult to locate.  So on some level it really depends where you live.  Now we see far more people posting that "They got the call" (from their AD).  So I think for true collectors its been a good thing that they are easier to obtain, sadly prices are much higher but only because they were always grossly underpriced. It will be interesting to see what changes if any are shown at Basel.

post #17383 of 37162
Quote:
Originally Posted by johanm View Post

I do think the market is anticipating some "improvements" for the next Daytona as the secondary market for SS 116520s is tanking. Looking at rolexforums and Timezone, you see BNIB new serial, open warranty examples going for about $11-11.5k, LNIB with warranty for $10-10.5k, with new listings every day. Could not have imagined this % drop below retail when I was considering a Daytona in 2008-2009.

 

Fascinating pricing.  As I mentioned a few pages back, I'm looking at the 116520 and my AD is offering me one for $12K.  Not so bad given these secondary market options, 'no?

post #17384 of 37162
Quote:
Originally Posted by no frills View Post

 

Fascinating pricing.  As I mentioned a few pages back, I'm looking at the 116520 and my AD is offering me one for $12K.  Not so bad given these secondary market options, 'no?

Hi Frill,

 

Johan, I think is lamenting that there is any price drop at all.  Years ago Daytonas were grossly underpriced, and the supply particularly when they were relying on Zenith for El Primero movement to modify was far short of demand.  Hence on an average day back in say 1995/1996 you could by a steel 16520 Daytona for say $3850 (before the the next price increase when it went to $4,350) and you could sell it the same day for $7,500-$8,000.   You could even wear it for 4-5 years, get it serviced and sell it for nearly twice what you paid.  Then as prices approached the $5,500 to $6,000 in the used market you could sell it for $8,500-9,000.  When I got one of the early 116520s in 2001 for $6,000 I got an insurance appraisal from a gray market shop (since list price was not its accurate value), the owner of the shop had not seen one in person yet and told me they are selling for $12,000, and wrote the appraisal accordingly.

 

Once list priced got to $9,000-9,500 fewer people could afford them, they had been in production for several years and then with the economic slump of 2008/09 prices got soft on the secondary market and people couldn't flip them the same day for a profit.  Still resale is quite good, you can't buy a Sub, GMT, Milgauss, Explorer etc and sell it the same or next day without experiencing some depreciation.

post #17385 of 37162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino944 View Post

Hi Frill,

 

Johan, I think is lamenting that there is any price drop at all.  Years ago Daytonas were grossly underpriced, and the supply particularly when they were relying on Zenith for El Primero movement to modify was far short of demand.  Hence on an average day back in say 1995/1996 you could by a steel 16520 Daytona for say $3850 (before the the next price increase when it went to $4,350) and you could sell it the same day for $7,500-$8,000.   You could even wear it for 4-5 years, get it serviced and sell it for nearly twice what you paid.  Then as prices approached the $5,500 to $6,000 in the used market you could sell it for $8,500-9,000.  When I got one of the early 116520s in 2001 for $6,000 I got an insurance appraisal from a gray market shop (since list price was not its accurate value), the owner of the shop had not seen one in person yet and told me they are selling for $12,000, and wrote the appraisal accordingly.

 

Once list priced got to $9,000-9,500 fewer people could afford them, they had been in production for several years and then with the economic slump of 2008/09 prices got soft on the secondary market and people couldn't flip them the same day for a profit.  Still resale is quite good, you can't buy a Sub, GMT, Milgauss, Explorer etc and sell it the same or next day without experiencing some depreciation.

 

That's an amazing history of the resulting equilbrium price given fluctuating supply and demand. 

 

Yeah, I don't think I'll be focused on resale value per se.  I'm looking for a good, reliable, tough chronograph, great workmanship and aesthetics.  I don't want to be a sucker and overpay for it, so I'll try to get one for a good price given attendant support (warranty, relationship with AD or grey market dealer, etc) - but I intend to use it and enjoy it.

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