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The Watch Appreciation Thread (Reviews and Photos of Men's Timepieces by Rolex, Patek Philippe, Breitling, JLC etc...) - Page 3186  

post #47776 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerpac View Post

Appreciate the insights, very helpful and thoughtful as always!

The Zenith-era dials are very great. Love the history of the movement and the way Rolex rebuilt it to purpose.

I was close to going that direction but think I'm going to end up with the current model, at least this time. You do make me take pause with the decision again though.

But, at least for the white dial, the newer version pops better to me. That combined with the movement upgrades so eloquently described by Paul Boutros below I'm heading towards new. Also love the newer Rolex bracelets.

http://www.hodinkee.com/articles/a-vintage-watch-nerds-critical-dissection-of-the-rolex-daytona-past-to-present-pt-23
Although I somewhat prefer the look of the previous-generation Daytona, I think the newer one is better for wearing, too — the bracelet and the movement are fantastic. If I do add an older one, it will be more for its potential collectibility than to wear regularly.

That three-part series on Hodinkee is a very good reference. You've likely also seen the watchmaker's detailed assessment at the end of their manufacturing facility feature, which I've excerpted below:

I spoke to a friend who is an independent watchmaker – he does not work for Rolex but does, with some regularity, work on them, in addition to watches from several other brands. He asked that he remained anonymous. Here is what he had to say:

"Setting Dufour and Voutilainen level movement finishing aside, from a pure engineering perspective, Rolex's 3130 based calibers have reigned supreme for close to 30 years now. No mass-produced movement outside of Rolex comes close to matching their quality, durability, and reliability. They have come terribly close to defining the epitome of what a perfectly conceived mechanical watch movement should be.
more technical stuff (Click to show)
Rolex took everything that was good about their 3130 series of movements and applied it to a chronograph. But they didn't stop there. They also took a long, hard, critical look at how they could improve upon the design thinking behind the 3130 to make it even more reliable. They looked at the weak points of the 4030, as well, and determined how best they could improve on what they had learned from it. The result was the 4130.
As for improvements on the 4030, there are several. Top five, in my opinion, would be:

1. Vertical clutch
2. Modularity of automatic section
3. Full balance bridge with height adjustment nut
4. Single point of adjustment for the chronograph system (versus five in the 4030)
5. Parachrome hairspring – I believe it was there from the beginning, sans blue colour at the outset

On top of that, they kept the goodness that was already in the 4030, such as the column wheel and free-sprung, microstella balance wheel (which Rolex equips all of its modern calibers with).

They didn't stop with all of that, either, though. Getting back to your reason for touching base: they have quietly been improving on the design since its debut at the turn of the millennium."

He continued: "It is not unusual for Rolex to make incremental improvements to their calibers. The 1500 series went through multiple iterations over its long history. The 3000 series received small improvements, tweaking part tolerances. All of the ladies' calibers have also seen small improvements over the years. That's the Rolex way. Continually improving things, down to the smallest details. The upgrades to the 4130 haven't been mere tweaks, however, they bring notable improvements."

"An 'upgrade' they did make some noise about was the blue Parachrome hairspring. As alluded to above, earlier 4130s were equipped with a white 'Parachrome' hairspring built on the same molecular foundation. Once proven and, in light of cutbacks from Swatch Group and its subsidiaries like Nivarox, it was important for Rolex to market this milestone in their vertical integration of production. More importantly, to me, the Parachrome hairspring was a serious horological leap forward in terms of precision and reliability of timekeeping."

"They made a small upgrade to the train wheel bridge, modifying some of the components and the way that they operate upon it, to improve the reliability of the hour and minute counters. I would class this upgrade as being similar to the minor upgrades made to previous generations of Rolex movements."

"A more notable upgrade that they introduced is a hairspring protection block, which eliminates any possible risk of the lower coils of the hairspring tangling in the hairspring's overcoil when the watch endures a hard blow. To the best of my knowledge, this was a horological first. I have never seen anything like it from any other watch company. It is stunningly brilliant in its simplicity and it does its job flawlessly. While the wearer of a Daytona may never notice it's there, they would quickly notice if it were not should the watch take a hard knock."

"The biggest incognito upgrade are playless gears in the chronograph system. As I'm sure you already know, the vertical clutch system of the 4130 eliminates the jarring start of the second that can be noticed on chronographs that feature a lateral clutch when the chronograph is started. Playless gears take this to the next level, by eliminating backlash between gear teeth. In simple terms, backlash is a small amount of space, or 'play,' between the teeth of two gears that are interacting with one another, so that one tooth can disengage as another tooth moves in to continue to the transfer of energy.

"A certain amount of backlash is necessary in any traditional gear system to prevent the gear train from binding and locking up. Unless the profiles of every single gear tooth are absolutely perfect (impossible), the spacing between the gears remains absolutely perfect (impossible), and there is zero play in the motion of the gears themselves (unlikely and inefficient), the tooth that is disengaging will become jammed between the tooth it is pushing and the tooth that is trailing it if there is no backlash. Thus, backlash was a necessary evil. To solve the issue, Rolex fabricates playless gears, one atom at a time, using a process known as LiGa (lithography-galvanoplasty). An additive manufacturing process. LiGa makes it possible to create gear forms that would be impossible to realize using traditional machining tools."

"With this technology, Rolex was able to devise a gear form wherein the center of each gear tooth can be hollowed out, leaving behind two spring-like flanges that act as what would traditionally be the full tooth form. In this manner, both sides of the tooth can remain engaged with the gear it is interacting with throughout the entire duration of the tooth's transfer of energy, taking up any necessary play (backlash) in the hollow area in the center of the tooth."

"MB&F made some fuss about LiGa gears when they launched the HM2. That was the first time I had heard of this technology, which Jean-Marc Wiederrecht / Agenhor employed for the retrograde minutes. Little did I know then that Rolex had already rolled out this technology, in relative mass production, with the introduction of the Yacht-Master II earlier that year. After proving itself in the wild, in the Yacht-Master II, the technology was introduced as an upgrade to the Daytona several years later, bringing absolutely fluid and seamless motion to the chronograph hands as they start and reset."
"In sum, Rolex's 4130 represents the pinnacle of horological engineering. It is, arguably, the superlative in mechanical timekeeping. From its inception to its present incarnation, I have yet to encounter another watch movement that comes close to matching the thoughtfulness and attention to detail so evident in the 4130's design."

So, how is that for an endorsement?

source: https://www.hodinkee.com/articles/inside-rolex


I have a friend who's an independent watchmaker (accredited by Rolex, among others), and hearing his similar thoughts on the current Daytona movement was influential in my decision to get one three years ago. No regrets. smile.gif
post #47777 of 48312
Finally got to wear the watch after Christmas
post #47778 of 48312
Got something awesome to show you guys in a couple of days. A total surprise Christmas present from Mrs Dachshund, which she chose herself, completely unassisted, and absolutely nailed. Sadly we were abroad so she could only show me a picture - it's waiting for me when I get home. Not a watch, but some very cool watch paraphernalia.
post #47779 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belligero View Post

Although I somewhat prefer the look of the previous-generation Daytona, I think the newer one is better for wearing, too — the bracelet and the movement are fantastic. If I do add an older one, it will be more for its potential collectibility than to wear regularly.

The longer power reserve, easier to service movement, larger lum markings on the hands & dial, along the more modern bracelet with solid links and machined clasp, definitely make the modern Daytona a great choice for a daily wearer, especially for someone who does extreme biking and other rugged activities.  

 

Although the previous generation could handle it (I wore one as a daily wearer for 5 years, I didn't baby that one, and it took whatever I could dish out),  today I wouldn't use a vintage Daytona for very rugged activities.  I tend to baby my 16520, and use the 116520 for more regular use/activities.  Cheers!

post #47780 of 48312
Jeez so people weren't kidding when they said Daytonas were sometimes hard to from ADs.

The first AD, whom I bought two Rolexes from in 2014 while on vacation said, "oh yeah we don't have any and don't like to ship out of state anyway, but we'll keep you in mind when we get one in"

Wow, OK, that's the end of that relationship!

Second AD said they can get me one, but won't have any idea on when for a few days until Rolex gets back to them. Progress I guess...


Luckily, our lovely community has people who can help source such things smile.gif
post #47781 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by tigerpac View Post

Jeez so people weren't kidding when they said Daytonas were sometimes hard to from ADs.

The first AD, whom I bought two Rolexes from in 2014 while on vacation said, "oh yeah we don't have any and don't like to ship out of state anyway, but we'll keep you in mind when we get one in"

I believe to reduce competition between Rolex dealers and keep sales within marked territories, Rolex (at least in the US) has had a policy of not allowing ADs to sell watches out of State (by telephone or email purchase).  In the past, to purchase from an out of state AD, you had to physically go to the location, make the purchase, and some ADs would insist on making a copy of your driver's license as proof you physically were at the store (I guess in case Rolex audits them).  

 

If you think they are tough to get now you should have seen how difficult it was to get a steel Daytona from say the early 1990s through the early 2000s.  Most AD's selling at list price had wait lists ranging in length from 2.5 years to 5 years.  Some AD's would only sell them to customers that also bought a gold Rolex, or who had made many significant purchases from the store.  Other ADs (although they were not supposed to) and all the gray dealers were selling them with mark ups over MSRP of 50-100%.  

 

If you do some traveling check to see what Rolex ADs are around the area and pay them a visit. That's what I used to do when they were really difficult to get.  Since the down turn of the economy a few years ago, they are not as difficult to get through an AD as they used to be.  It might take a few months if you place an order. Or your could be luck and walk into a place that has one in their safe and is having a slow day.   About 4 months ago I walked into a local AD, and without even asking they offered me a white dial steel Daytona and I had never purchased anything from them.  So they are out there, it just takes a bit of patience or luck to get one from an AD. Wishing you luck! 

post #47782 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dino944 View Post
 

I believe to reduce competition between Rolex dealers and keep sales within marked territories, Rolex (at least in the US) has had a policy of not allowing ADs to sell watches out of State (by telephone or email purchase).  In the past, to purchase from an out of state AD, you had to physically go to the location, make the purchase, and some ADs would insist on making a copy of your driver's license as proof you physically were at the store (I guess in case Rolex audits them).  

 

 

As recently as last August - when I purchased a DSSD DBlue for a friend (he paid me back!) at the Rolex AD in Houston - they went through this entire process of copying my driver's license and the like. No discounts of course.

 

Also, in the distant past I had a white dial Daytona ref 116520... until my wife appropriated it!  White dial for the win! Although black dials are awesome too.

post #47783 of 48312
Happy (belated) New Year's, all! I've been away visiting with the in-laws for a bit, but lurking via iPhone.

Thought I'd add this Daytona pic for fun. Obviously the white dial was my preference, and one day I'd love to have a "Big Red" version, if circumstances should allow.

This was bought from an out-of-state AD who was willing to ship to Texas at the time ('08 or '09?) and I've kept it in regular rotation ever since.


post #47784 of 48312
Happy New Year gents!

BLNR second time zone is always set to Vegas time, my poker heaven.

Been enjoying lots of pics of some insane timepieces.

post #47785 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keith T View Post

Happy (belated) New Year's, all! I've been away visiting with the in-laws for a bit, but lurking via iPhone.

Thought I'd add this Daytona pic for fun. Obviously the white dial was my preference, and one day I'd love to have a "Big Red" version, if circumstances should allow.

This was bought from an out-of-state AD who was willing to ship to Texas at the time ('08 or '09?) and I've kept it in regular rotation ever since.

Happy New Year!   I'd also love to add a "Big Red" manual wind to my collection someday.

 

I ran into the out of state shipping issue back in 2004, when I was trying to purchase model that had been discontinued.  None of my local AD's had one.  Some how I located a new one, at an AD in California.  But I was informed they would not ship out of state unless I physically stopped into the store to purchase it.  They said Rolex forbids them from making out of state telephone sales.  I called Rolex in NYC, and spoke to someone there, and they confirmed that AD's are not allowed to make out of state telephone sales.  You may have lucked out and found an AD who was willing to bend the rules a bit (especially since that was a rough time for watch dealers due to the economic downturn).  However, with a huge round of Rolex franchise/contracts being cancelled for many long time ADs (particularly those discounting SS watches) during 2010 and 2011, its tougher to find ADs that will bend the rules. 

post #47786 of 48312
White-dial 15400 or white-dial Daytona?
post #47787 of 48312
Do they still make the Tudor Prince?
post #47788 of 48312
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oli2012 View Post

Do they still make the Tudor Prince?

 

No. 

 

The closest watch to the Prince that you'll find in Tudor's current line-up would be the Tudor Heritage Ranger, although it only comes with a black face and has a mix of Arabic numerals and baton (or stick) hour markers:

 

http://www.tudorwatch.com/#/en/ranger/

 

It costs over $3000 in Australia, I think.

 

You should be able to pick up a good, vintage Tudor Prince for $1800 - $2000, which is quite a bit less than the virtually identical Rolex Oysterdate of the same vintage. Do be aware, though, that a lot of Tudor Princes were pretty small compared to today's watches - many of them seem to have a case diameter of 34mm. 

 

If you want a new watch that is virtually identical to the Prince/Oysterdate, have a look at the Rolex Oyster Perpetual. I think that Rolex has now stopped making the Air-king so the Oyster Perpetual is now the "entry level" Rolex and it comes in a variety of case diameters, too:

 

http://www.jfarrenprice.com.au/watches/rolex/datejust-36mm/?gender=m#oyster-perpetual-datejust-2

 

No idea how much it costs but you're probably looking at AUD$6000 for a new one. 

post #47789 of 48312

What is everyone's opinion on the new H. Moser's jab at the Apple Watch?

 

I do love the watch in itself, and the surrounding ad campaign even more! Don't get me wrong, I do love my Apple products and have nothing against Apple per se, but I personally wouldn't buy the Apple watch. Still, I find the Moser pretty appealing, especially with the (typical Moser) beautiful dial color!

post #47790 of 48312

I think that if the iWeenie Watch were elegant, tasteful and utterly dripping with quality, it would be this.

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